"Real World" trainers, is this what you advocate?

Ok Bindi...pull up a chair, this will take a minute. I saw this video before....I also SKIMMED at some of the answers in here, no read them.

Here is my take and MY take ONLY on this!!

The handler is an azzhole...not because of what he did...he did not take it far enough, he did not correct the problem, he just made it worse. We can all see that by the way the dog was trying him again and again and again.

That dog needed to be strung up and held up til he passed out and then dropped and made to IMMEDIATELY do a command, if he did it without ANY BS, great, if not, and tried the handler again, string him up again til he passed out and try all over again.

The HANDLER is UNDER correcting here, an offense that MOST idiots are guilty of and something that will infuriate a good, strong dominant dog. ONE good hanging would have taken care of all the other Alpha rolling BS that he attempted again and again, without getting anywhere as you could plainly see.

Now, let's discuss the bunny hugger reactions to this video. It looks bad to most people, doesn't it?

However, most people have never had to depend their lives on a dog, literally, most people have never taken cover behind a car or a corner while being shot at and their dog is trying to nail them.

All that has to be worked out and taken out of the dog's system way before we get to this point.

I have been there Bindi, I have the gunshot scars to prove it, I have layed my life on the line, in the street and in other places around the world, I know what kind of dog and what kind of training it takes to get that dog to work in places like that.

Me...I would and I have strung up a dog til be thought he would die and let him pass out, laying on his side, tongue hanging out of his mouth...one minute later that dog jumped up and was ready to go.

People here are confusing their little snookums to an actual, real working dog....BIG MISTAKE!!!

The Malinois you have could never work the street, does not have the temperament and therefore would NEVER challenge you in a way that would threaten your life. Honeybell has gone on record talking about her malinois that is a malinois in looks ONLY but lacks the true spirit or the breed. People like that LOVE to talk about abuse, they love to make fun of what a "real trainer" would do in a situation like this.

When was the last time YOUR dog threaten to take your life? Not just you, everyone in here that answered. When was the last time you and that dog got off a plane and were welcomed to a country by a van carrying 600 pounds of explosives? When was the last time you walked in a building that you KNEW contained several AK-47 carrying terrorists that would love to take you with them?

When that happens and your very life depends on that dog next to you, you will think differently of your training and your methods and if you or anyone else in here thinks that a dog that is willing to die to get to a guy hiding in a ceiling, waiting for you, can be trained with clickers and treats, I have news for you.

In conclusion, the guy on the video is guilty of UNDER correcting his dog, not over doing it, ONE good correction would have cured the BS the dog was trying to pull and training could have continued.

Please let me know, I can add more if you would like to get deeper in this subject. Hope I helped!

ADD: Honeybell...correction, I and several others have seen you talk about your showline dog and how YOU have mentioned that you would not want nor have a REAL malinois.

As far as your training, do share with us..it is nice to know that others may be using a breed such as the malinois to do what the dog was meant to do be doing.

As far as mentioning me, I can read between the lines REALLY well and there are maybe 3 people on here that have any experience with police/protection/sport dogs, so, you tell me, for whom they bells toll?

If you do not want to be mentioned, I will be glad to leave you out of any future discussions, so long as of course, you stop insinuating! Have a great day.

ADD: Honeybell, I have tried, I really did try to give you as much respect and be as nice as I could in my previous answer, however, your sarcasm is getting old here.

In the malinois breed, I am God, I have been into it for more then 30 years, I know more about working malinois then anyone else, that is done. As far as you caring about this, knowing it, whatever, that is not a concern of mine.

Since you are the proud owner of Bronson, do tell me/us, about his bloodlines and the work I mentioned in my previous answer to you. I could really care less about your other dogs, what you have done, what you have not, etc.

It is your attitude I am having a problem with here. What Curtis may or may not have done is not what the point here is. If you read amy answer you have seen where I mention that the HANDLER, not trainer, is an azzhole.

That is NOT training, read my whole answer, not just the parts that suit you.

Finally, when it comes to you or anyone else learning here from me, again, that is not what I am doing anymore, tried that a few years a go, the bunny huggers were not interested, now I am here to have fun and pass time, but, 30 years a several thousand dogs later, I will not be questioned about what I know and what works in the real world.

As far as you, we can compare what you have done with what I have all day, let me know when you are interested!

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=200809...

If I am not mistaken, this is your answer in here talking about things you have no idea about!!!

While I do live & train my dogs in the real world, I have never seen a working dog doing its job or being professionally trained. This is therefore my unprofessional opinion!

If the Malinois was being trained then I don't think it knew it!

The dog was not focused & under the control of its handler, nor responding to commands when they were given. The dog was doing precisely what it wanted to do, whenever it wanted to do it.

The trainer spent most of his time flipping the dog & ineffectually pinning it down, with the dog bouncing straight back up. An intelligent dog will see through a weak minded trainer & ignore commands because it has learned a hard negative consequence will not follow to enforce it.

The Malinois treated the *training* more like a game......a game the dog was definitely winning!

I've read all the answers so far. What I see and hear is a trainer in training himself. He does not know how to handle the dog. You can hear the guy in the background telling him what to do, although I'm not sure he knows either.The flip was performed wrong and then he let him back up, again and again.

At the first nip on the forearm, he should have placed his left hand on the back of the dogs head--thumb behind one ear and 3rd finger behind the the other ear, his right should have went to the throat as the dog went into the air, at the same time his right knee should have helped push the dog through the air, thus expelling the wind out of him. Then after landing on top of the dog, he should have held the dog down until his eyes rolled back into his head and he was just about passed out. Then and only then after the release of pressure and the dogs has completely relaxed, should he let the dog up, and then continue training as if it never happened.

A flip with the collar only is dangerous,a dog can spin and still get you while doing the maneuver.

I DO NOT see abuse here--I see a very inexperienced trainer--If you notice he lets the dogs hindquarters hit the ground first thus breaking the impact--the dogs shoulders should have hit the ground first--hind quarters last--everyone has to learn somehow and no book will teach you how--they give ideas and techniques but they do not teach you how to execute them.

Curtis, Greek and several others pointed out--he under corrected the dog.

I ended up with a 2 year old yellow lab a few years back that had never had anything but a tie-out and feed and water--he was basically wild. The first time I put a lead on him he spun around and grabbed my coat with his teeth and when I let him up, it was all over, he became a good little dog with a nice personality who now resides as a pet( he had no hunting instincts) with a friend of mine with 2 small children.

I usually never have to perform something like this as my dogs get a lot of obedience training when very young and they don't have the temperaments to try you but on the right dog, at the right time, it needs to be done. No trainer is made overnight and believe it or not he might mess up a couple dogs in the process( I don't think he messed this dog up at this point but he will have the same problem again,maybe he will learn and do better the next time).

There really wasn't a reason to watch the whole video. Cops are well known to be awful handlers. They are NOT, and never have been mistaken with being Trainers. That being said...without knowing the level of the dogs "training" prior to this video, it's difficult to say. If he was a "finished" dog, and was commanded to stay "quiet" (or whatever the guy is trying to do), then I'd say the cop is UNDER-reacting....and ridiculously sloppy while doing it. If the dog is early on in his training, then it's completely ignorant. EIther way, generally, when looking at police dogs and K9 handlers, you're gonna see some piss poor training and handling. The cops cannot afford good dogs OR trainers...so they're stuck with what they have. I put no more value in that video than I would a Petsmart training session.

I don’t think this would be the way to train a dog at all. I know that not everyone is for strictly positive training and I know that does not work for all dogs but surely there are better things then this. That dog will never have the full trust, respect or friendship with his handler. He will obey him out of fear only and that could one day lead to disaster. I was reading leesburg website and the guy over there said corrections should be made but only when you know the dog for sure knows what he/she is suppose to do but does not do it. This poor dog just wanted to get far away from this man and I don’t blame him. I was hoping he’d attack the guy as well he’d have deserved it IMO.

Cesar does the “alpha roll” but not like this Cesar is calm when he does his “alapha roll” he does not get upset or agitated like this man clearly was and the dogs are lying on their side not on their back with Cesar staring them in the eye.

Not a professional, but my take is this:

I do not think this dog was frightened, at all. He was excited, and tried to take a chunk out of his handler, which DOES deserve harsh correction.

CORRECTION, not a wrestling match, which this guy shows no sign of winning. The dog is excited and confused, and doesnt seem to have a clue what he is trying to teach him.....over and over again.

I have one very big, very excitable, occasionally dog aggressive, dog, and I have pinned him on occasion, but there is no wrestling...all I have to do is grab the nape of his neck to put him down, and I only have to do it ONCE.

In fact, if we are at home I dont even have to touch him.....all it takes is a hard look, and he lies down. He lies there until I say he can get up, and when he gets up he does not go back and do the same thing, again, because he understands what he did wrong.

The dog in the video obviously has no idea what he did wrong, or what his handler wants from him....in fact, I think he may think the guy is playing with him.

Although I understand that police dogs need strict training and often what appears horrible to us is necessary, but that was not necessary. It's one thing to meet a challenge from a dog with an equally aggressive challenge, it's another thing to just continue to 'attack' a dog. That dog has got to be confused as all get out!

Lioness, I was also hoping that man would get his face bit off and quite frankly, I'm surprised he didn't.

Greekman: I see exactly what you are saying. Stringing a dog up and doing a CORRECT correction seems a whole lot more humane in my mind. This idiot just seems to be confusing his dog and taking his frustrations out on the dog rather than training it.

I'm not one of those "real world" people, but I do consider myself to at least have some idea what I'm talking about.

I cannot for the life of me figure out what exactly the dog was doing to warrant that. I'm just completely confused by the whole thing. It looks to me like all they're doing is messing up a perfectly good dog who has not be taught by a competent trainer. To me, the dog obviously doesn't know what he wants from him.

I will not stand here and tell you I have never given a dog a "throw down". I have. It wasn't that violent and it did serve its purpose. But what I saw in that video appeared to be completely unjustified and counter-productive.

Then again, I'm a tree hugger, so what do I know.

I'm not gonna lie, for a minute there I was totally rooting for the dog to slip his collar and take the guys face off... is that wrong?

It is a disgrace to call rappers like Soulja Boy, OJ Da Juiceman, Gucci Mane, Flo Rida, etc. emcees. An MC is an artist who defines the true essence of Hip Hop. The title MC should only be given to those who deserve it, and club music rappers do NOT deserve to be called an MC under any circumstances.

It's fascinating how different people can see the same video with completely different views and conclusions as to what happened.

I see an eager Malinois mouthing his handler, like I see young Belgians do all the time and I see the handler going off his handle and overreacting completely and that whole prolonged and continuous forced alpha rolling? I don't agree with this at all. I'm disgusted and had to force myself to watch the whole video, but in one area, I have to agree with Curtis, the dog was not hurt or cowed. A good, solid Malinois can take a treatment like that.

Yes, well bred BSDs in particular need a firm and consequent handler. I’ve seen a good BSD turn into an aggressive b**** that dominated the whole household, first because the family were too lenient and soft, later because they were afraid of her. However, firm and consequent, doesn’t equal physical correction. The only time, I believe in correcting a dog physically is in response to a direct challenge and most family dogs will never try this, but yes I can imagine it happening with working line Malinois. My high drive Tervueren tried it with me once as well, and I did come down hard on her or I would have been in trouble later, but still...no alpha rolling, no throwing the dog around like it's a ragdoll.

Another thing I noticed was the lack of contact between dog and handler, it's of course difficult to judge contact in a short video where the handler does little else than throw the dog around, but it’s interesting to note that BSDs with breed typical tempers are known to ignore their handlers if these are too hard on them and this was actually part of the reason I stopped training at the police dog school with my first dog, because 15 years ago, they were still training with hard training methods and I was getting nowhere with my dog. The Danish police have since become “bunny huggers” as well and get good results with it. However, I’m not sure it can be directly transferred to the dog training done by the U.S. police force, because from what I’ve seen and heard, the dogs are used differently with the U.S. dogs being more specialized in each their area, whereas the Danish dogs are more all-round.

I don't consider myself a “bunny hugger”, but I probably fall into that category with many of the trainers in here, because I train with treats or play, combined with praise. I also spend a lot of time bonding with my dog. I will correct her if necessary, but never in a training situation and never by alpha-rolling or by causing pain. I firmly believe that alpha-rolls have no place in dog training. If you are so far out that you have to resort to alpha-rolling to get your dog in line, then you have failed as a trainer. Sorry for stepping on anyone's toes, this is my personal opinion only.

Note: Before anyone puts words in my mouth: No, I'm not comparing my part working line, part show line BSDs with working line Malinois. I know there's a difference between the two.

I'm not a professional dog trainer, but all my dogs know how to stay and I've never had to wrestle them to the ground and yell at them to stay. That is absolutely ridiculous. I feel so sorry for the dog because I'm sure that he has no idea what he's expected to do.

I held my breath when the man accepted the gun from someone off to the side. From his earlier behavior, I seriously considered that he might shoot the dog. I'd venture to say that his guy has never read about dog training.