Jewish friends: when we are next asked to explain, yet again, why Jews *don't* worship Jesus as 'divine'?

I have used every one of those passages multipe times (probably a hundred times!) in Yahoo Answers for just that purpose.

Once I listed each of those, plus gave a link to the Tanakh and referenced other passages that condemn the notion of men as gods to the question asked thousands of times in Y/A of why Jews don't believe in Jesus, and it was actually deleted as not a question or a answer and appeal denied. The answer that was "voted" on that one insisted that Jesus was the god of Torah. An answer that violated Torah was "best" but one that used the Torah and asked others directly to read the entire passages in context was a "violation".

It is ALWAYS thumbed down and insulted directly, yet the laws and those direct statements of belief in the Tanakh are the answer to that question that is far too ofte asked only to bait Jews almost daily.

They say that insanity is doing the same things expecting a different result.....( I had that once hurled at me for explaining on another question why it is blasphemy for a Jew to worship Jesus as a god)

To that I replied, in reality, If someone asks you to add 2 + 2 and you answer 4 every time and another insists it is 5, who is the one who has a problem?

As Jews have done since the establishment of the eternal covenant, when asked/challenged/demanded that we include foreign god worship/idolatry/mangod worship into Judaism to assimilate and eliminate us, we shall be obligated to explain the laws God gave to us to show why that will never, ever be permissible.

edit: Notice that Muldah quotes the dogma of the Christian religon's New Testament as *evidence* that Jesus is a god.

The dogma of another religion is irrelevant to determining the law of Judaism. That Christian dogma gives them a sense of entitlement to negate God's commandments for the Jewish people that Torah declares are eternal, doesn't have any relevance to the Jewish people.

edit: Zvi..there are several websites that do just that used by many Jews here, the most succinct being http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/ a site I've shared online since 2004 quite literally thousands of times to the same questions repeatedly asked in chat, on blogs, on forums. I've seen Jews from every movement take up using that reference here in Y/A too. I think it is one of the best because it addresses the perspective of the missionary who is trying to convince Jews what we believe is wrong..when they really don't appear to even know what it is we believe..

Most Christians still will not get it at all because for the vast majority, they have NO idea that Judaism isn't "Christianity without Jesus".

Some answers here so obviously display their extreme ignorance and/or misinformation about Judaism.

Now I'll add some information here specifically for those responses:

A hundred years or more before the NT appeared, the sage Hillel the elder was asked by someone rather mockingly to explain the Torah while standing on one foot. His wise summation has withstood the test of time, " Do not do to others what you would you would find distasteful to yourselves. All the rest is commentary, now go and learn"

When Christianity came along, it’s precepts turned the vast majority of Jewish beliefs and commandments completely topsy-turvy. They also turned Hillel’s words around so that the reverse position to

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." was now taught. In other words, the essence of Judaism is to put yourself in another's shoes. If your action would be considered harmful or disrespectful by the person you are acting upon or whose life is affected, refrain from doing that to them.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you allows for a people who believe their way to be the superior way, the EXCLUSIVE way to say, we are doing this for your own good whether you like it or not, we like it so it’s ok to do to you.

Do not do unto others what is distasteful is more respectful. Jews would not try to convert others. Reverse the positions, and it would be extremely distasteful to have that done to you. Many other faiths, Musilms and Christians included, have used this revised interpretation of the Golden Rule to do terrible things to others, and FORCE others to act as they would wish.

This teaching reinforces their sense of ENTITLEMENT to appropriate the customs, holy observances and other aspects of Judaism while turning the beliefs entirely UPSIDE DOWN and try to negate the legitimacy of the nearly 4000 year old ETERNAL covenant. Because most Christians have no clue as to the history and development of their religion and it’s New Testament and because their view of Judaism is entirely through the lens of their replacement theology, they have no idea that it’s precepts and narratives give a view of our Judaism that is entirely foreign TO it.

Tertullian, early in the third century CE named the Christian amended version of the Tanakh the "Old Testament" *specifically* to designate it as having been superseded and done away with in contrast to the "New", despite the assertion within it's texts well over a dozen times from Genesis forward that it is an eternal testament (covenant).

Both the Greek and Roman conquerors tried to assimilate the Jewish people out of existence by intermingling their beliefs into the conquered populace and Christianity by extension has never stopped this path.

And for most others who do later come to recognize those differences, because they believe that their NT superseded the eternal covenant of Torah, they feel they are entitled to also “Do unto Jews” what they believe would be the best thing, dismiss our basic human right of self-determination as a PEOPLE..because, after all they believe they have the ONLY way to God. That is ALSO foreign to the Torah..and it’s evident by some of the answers here that some are oblivious to that fact of Jewish belief.

Torah teaches that ALL humans may directly connect to and be blessed and reconciled to God..Jew and Gentile, and indeed Tanakh also shows Jews and Gentiles doing this at First and Second Temples. What is forbidden is to introduce idolatrous and foreign elements of worship into the covenant. That's what was going on at the time just before the destruction of the Second Temple. Hanukkah, another Jewish observance celebrating a victory over religious intolerance and attempts to impose idolatry into Judaism begins this week.

We're just going to keep on our insane path of doing the same ole thing that's kept our faith and path alive for nearly 4 thousand years, I suppose ;)

Am Yisrael Chai.

answer: here's what I usually type, I'll probably add yours to it, if that's cool. It'll be wasted on many though and some will arrogantly claim that Jews can read our texts, it takes a Christian to explain them to us. Fortunately, its only a handful that do that.

Reasons Jesus wasn’t the Jewish Messiah

divine birth/divinity - (the Jewish Messiah will be human – G-d cannot become human – Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:6, Hosea 11:9, Ezekiel 28:2, Numbers 23:19) – strike

performing miracles - (JM won't perform miracles) – strike

taking on the sins of others - (no one can take on the sins of others – Deuteronomy 24:16, Exodus 32:30-35, Ezekiel 18:1-4; 20-24; 26-27) – strike

breaking Sabbath - strike (JM will be observant) – strike

sacrificed/rising from the dead - (G-d rejects human sacrifice and blood sacrifice is NOT an absolute requirement – Deuteronomy 12:30-31, Jeremiah 19:4-6, Psalm 106:37-38, Ezekiel 16:20, Leviticus 5:11-13, Jonah 3:10, Leviticus 17, Leviticus 5:11-13, Numbers 16:47, Numbers 31:50, Isaiah 6:6-7, Jeremiah 7:22-23, Psalm 51:16-17) – strike

prophecies unfilled - (JM will accomplish them in one life time) – strike

The Messiah cannot trace his lineage through Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, or Shealtiel, because this royal line was cursed (I Chronicles 3:15-17; Jeremiah 22:18,30). But according to both Matthew 1:11-12 and Luke 3:27, Jesus was a descendant of Shealtiel. - strike

being worshiped - Jews worship G-d and only G-d – strike and OUT

don't try it. getting into arguments with missionaries is never a good idea, many have practiced their arguments and have thought of most problems with your arguments and prepared answers that at least sound true, though usually they are fallacies. DEFINETELY don't quote the Torah. they re-interpret large portions of the OT, attribute others to post-Jesus changes by the real Jews and find ways of using other verses to prove their point. so while the thought is good, it will probably be counter-productive.

what often works is using theological problems, eg. an infinite being cannot be divided into three parts, or take any sort of physical form. the messiah will make the whole world recognize god, which hasn't happened, etc. another thing that often works is attacking them on home turf: internal contradictions between gospels, lack of Christian religion until centuries after Jesus, new parts being added and old ones discarded in its history (limbo? infallible pope? what happened there?).

just a few suggestions, don't take my word for it!

I'll take a different tact & disagree all together.

We have little reason to prove God can't be human. We need to answer to the endless questioning of Judaism by merely stating that this is what Judaism believes.

Beyond that - it's mute. We don't need to be "right" nor to "prove" it to anyone. It only comes out as bashing sounding (to their ears since anything contradicting "believe" in Christainity sounds bad (almost a threat) to those who believe.)

Instead, we need to do the very, very boring...repeat the basic core tenents of Judaism when asked why we don't believe. And that's all. It's enough. It's not like anyone asking has heard it before. If they shake their heads & say "but you're wrong" that's fine. They can believe we are *hellishly* wrong. They just need to know we disagree & have a different set of beliefs.

.................................

Beyond that

- We need to provide proof when it's someone Jewish asking us for clarifcation on Judaism.

- We need to provide proof when it's someone Christian asking to understand Judaism for their own reasons.

- We need to provide clarification on several misconcepts when they come up. For instance that Judaism was never violent. We need to do that because it creates a better image (that also happens to be accurate) -- which helps in the long run. Also that J. wasn't the cause for no more sacrifices. Also that there was never a blood requirement (an aspect of the violence image.) Also that Judaism isn't C with the law & threat of failure. Just presenting how we relate to "the law" as a positive is enough to bring more respect for the religion.

There's so much to fight. Convincing Christains that they are wrong just isn't one of the battles. I don't have a problem with them believing what they do - which includes that Judaism got it wrong. So long as they start to see that Jews think otherwise (as a general point) & are proud of our religion. I think the bridge building & real love will come better out of that.

(Side note to that: evangelicals often don't realize we have a personal relationship with God, even on that basic level they don't know about Judaism. I spent 3 days in person arguing with one on that point & it's not the only time I've had that conversation.)

====================

Ki - to answer you

It's seen as appropriate development that when humans now know right from wrong, they need a different environment from which to live & grow, with appropriate challenges. Or it can be seen that the eviction was somewhat allegorical, that once innocence was lost they (we) are no longer blind to the lack of paradise in the same way Adam & Eve then saw their naked bodies. There are many ways of interpreting the verses, this being just a couple. Yes, they are evicted for doing wrong, but that doesn't result in original sin as inherent in human nature (or as needing punishment), just in a new circumstance for all later humans. Original sin & need for saving from that aspect of human nature is a concept first identified by St. Augustine long after Judaism's theology had developed & doesn't fit in well with Judaism.

Update:

Just read Pastor someone's annoying answer to another question

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AkeuD...

Sometimes you do need to hit them on the head with A LOT to convince them Christianity is not Judaism with JC added.

I rather not get in an argument over who knows scripture better. For one thing, I am not a student of the bible and I really could not fairly argue one verse over another. Secondly it has nothing to do with why I am Jewish and do not worship Jesus.

The reason that I do not accept Jesus is because my father did not. His father did not as his father's father. I do not wish to deny my heritage.

I will make no comment on what Jesus is, was or is not for someone else.

Good idea. And add that we only follow the Torah, which is similar to their 'old testament'. You also might want to add those D Aravah lines in there?

We should make a small easy-to-access website for 'instant answers' to the usual questions which we can then just copy and paste instead of searching through the files to find what we wrote. we can have several good answers to one question.

edit: D Aravah, I'd like you to be the umpire for MY baseball team. You gave Jesus like 7 strikes before calling him out, which would bode very well for my chances of hitting the ball. ;-)

Edit: WOW, what an answer by cher! I'm glad you were here. :-)

Yeshua is our Messiah. Why bother fight against God? Thats what your doing now. You cant even keep the Torah so why to you try and preach it! Yeshua is the only prefect one. He has came and gone and is coming back again. You know the scriptures that speak of Yeshua (Jesus) as being the Messiah, and if you deny those you deny God and His word.

I do not believe in Epiphany, but in Genesis 18:1-8 speaks of God [and 2 angels] appeared in human form [Theophany] to Abraham and also ate food offered by him.

I think it's a good idea but we will need to be prepared to repeat the answer;as you have noticed questions about Jews and Jesus are asked rather frequently.

i'd rather not bother. it will fall on deaf ears anyways. i dont have to explain WHY i believe or don't believe in something. it's nobody's business.

i thought apologetics were hot in the 12th century and sort of dwindled... seems like the internet has brought it back.

It seems good :) but they will just try to dispute it with something from NT or call out that Jews changed the Torah or that all you need is Jesus and that none of the laws of the Torah matter anymore.

Some people wish to state their opinion but not hear fact when it is presented to them.