Serious Questions for Thinking Atheists...?

Thanks for your question/point. I've always wondered why atheists take such pains to try to disprove the biblical version of God. Whether the biblical version of God exists or not, (and I don't think that it does, too much mythological junk around it for it to be literally feasible), does not automatically mean that some sort of "higher intelligence", (or what have you), could exist. I've made the same mistake that a lot of other atheists have done, when I was an atheist during my teenage years. I assumed that the mythological version of God found in the Judeo-Christian bible, must be the only valid version of God "out there", and I then proceeded to dump the baby, (God), out with the dirty bath water, (the Judeo-Christian myths about God) when I chose to become an atheist.

I've since learned that there are logical and trans-logical ways of believing in God, and still remain an intelligent "thinking person".

Instead of taking the easy, lazy route of disbelieving in God because of all the mythological mumbo-jumbo around it, one should investigate some of the other valid ways of believing in God, whether rationally based, or trans-rationally based.

Peace and Namaste!

"If matter has just always existed, why is it any less likely that some "intelligence" has also just alway existed, and perhaps even exerted some influence upon the universe?"

Occam's Razor. Discovering what happened in a scientific matter, then tacking on "and God was responsible" does nothing for science--Occam's Razor slices out that Goddidit.

"Next, if there has been an infinite series of universes--big bang, inflation, collapse, repeat--then, since there are only so many ways that the limited number of particles in the universe can be arranged, wouldn't that mean that it is likely that there was a prior universe (or perhaps an alternative universe right now) that is EXACTLY like this one?"

Nice hypothesis. Care to prove it? Saying something could have happened doesn't mean it did.

"I mean, if you have an infinite number of tries, then there MUST have been (or be) an infinite number of IDENTICAL universes to this one, in which everything plays out the same. And it if plays out the same, then the collapse will be identical...which will necessitate that the "big bang" is identical to the a former one also."

PROVE that there are parallel universes, this this dimension or the next.

"This SURELY takes as much faith to believe as to simply believe there is a God. That is, it is no more ludicrous to believe in an intelligent being than to believe that there have been TRILLIONS of identical universes to this one...of logical necessity, it seems."

Yes, it does take as much faith to believe in--because there's no evidence for it. But science isn't about making unsupported, unsupportable claims. Seems the only arguing in this manner is you.

"My POINT is that it is just as reasonable to believe in a GOD OF SOME SORT (even if not the Christian God) as to not believe in a God at all."

Goddidit is NOT reasonable.

"If it is the God of the Bible you don't believe in, consider that what you really my be resisting is a CERTAIN INTERPRETATION of the Bible."

There are THOUSANDS of interpretations of the Bible. Different interpretation, different God, because each of the gods your denominations believe in value different things--the same god cannot value thousands of different situations, especially when they're so contradictory. Aren't YOU rejecting the gods of your fellow denominations?

"That is, you do not believe in a particular version of God that has arisen from the Bible."

Same can be said about your lack of belief in Allah, Kali, or the FSM.

"Is it ANY GOD (i.e., eternal intelligence) that you are resisting...or just the standard version of God?"

Atheism is the lack of belief in any deity. That's it. No "standards" or "eternal intelligence" or "souls" or anything like that needed to be an atheist. Is there a reason to believe in YOUR god any more than there is reason to believe in a Deistic god? No.

Hallo,

Your first point is correct, as far as I'm concerned. It also works both ways, if God has been around for ever, then the universe (or whatever created the universe) could have been too, that's why I don't understand how theists can say "how can the universe just have come from nowhere?"

Next, possibly, it depends where we are in the series of universes, we may be the first one to play out like this. Also when you think of the number of variables in the universe, you could argue that there is an infinite number of potential universes, so there's no guarantee this one has happened before, or may happen again. Now we're getting into probability theory, which I don't know a lot about.

I'm going paragraph by paragraph here, if there is an infinite number of "tries" then there CAN be a number of identical universes to this which have existed before. As I said above, we could be the first time this combination has come up. If there's an infinite number of tries and an infinite number of possibilities though, then maybe we will only appear once (infinity is a tricky concept).

Your last point seems contradictory, assuming you're right before this (which I'm not sure about) then you've already explained how this universe could have occurred trillions of times. If the big bang/crunch idea is correct then it doesn't require any faith to understand that we may be one in a chain of infinite sequential universes, as it can be explained.

What theists question (as far as I understand) is rather how the first in the series of universes came about, and that is something big bang theorists can't know for sure, as prior to the (most recent) big bang the laws of physics do not apply (or the current ones), so it is impossible to hypothesise about what caused it. We can claim that it has always been happening and has "beginning" as such, in the same way that theists claim that there has always been a God, who in turn did not have a creator.

This is just my take on it, I'm not a physicist or a mathematician.

"If matter has just always existed, why is it any less likely that some "intelligence" has also just alway existed, and perhaps even exerted some influence upon the universe?"

Because if matter has always exited, there would be no need for an intelligence. Therefore an outside agent would be superfluous and Occam's razor dispenses of that choice.

"Next, if there has been an infinite series of universes--big bang, inflation, collapse, repeat--then, since there are only so many ways that the limited number of particles in the universe can be arranged...This SURELY takes as much faith to believe as to simply believe there is a God"

I've kept the relevant part here. What you must realize that this is an extremely young branch of science and not all scientists agree about anything in this field of parallel universes, what happened "before" (if that word means anything) the big bang, etc. No one would state with any certainty that this is absolutely true; even scientists working in this field concede that many of their thoughts are purely conjecture. I would disapprove of anyone who would portray these thoughts as scientific fact. However, that does not mean that "God Did It!" is a viable alternative to the scientific explanation available. When presented with a question where there is much doubt, the best answer is "I don't know, and I won't pretend that I do."

The 2 occasions you describe are fairly exclusive, the primary, although hypothetical, is practical. The moment is natural fable. There comfortably is not any proof that remotely indicates that a god exists or that whatever God is alleged of doing ever occurred. In essence, if the Bible used to be no longer approximately your god, established at the proof you might write it off as a fable approximately a capricious and bloody god. No, I is not going to e mail you, I already recognise the whole lot approximately your faith that you just could probably inform me. Edit: Let's seem at this instance a little bit extra. Suppose there are lots of folks within the water and the boat is an overly giant barge with the capacity to aid each person, however the captain best throws out one or 2 ropes. This is how your god is alleged to behave. Jesus got here to a tiny side of the arena and stayed there, good clear of the vast majority of the populace facilities. When Christians declare miracles, they're regularly very localized and do not anything to handle the giant issues. Further, so much of the ills that you just characteristic to mankind (whilst no longer considering the fact that the development and enhancements we're making) are in general because of faith and devout ideals.

Why are you under the impression that current cosmological hypotheses and theories are inimical to theists? The big bang was first proposed by a Catholic priest, Fr. Georges Lemaitre. And myself and most other atheists and naturalistic pantheists, as well as researchers of both the theistic and atheistic varieties make no guesses as to what was or wasn't "before" the Planck epoch. It may be a meaningless question in any guess, since time is a function of space, therefore before space exists, there is no time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_epoch

Edit: The standard versions. I have no deep objection to an uncreated creator, a first cause. But there is no reason believe that it created a universe 14 billion light years across only to obsess over our diet and consensual sexual behaviors. Nor could I imagine such an unmoved mover would be so very, very insecure as to condemn individuals to eternities of torment just for a thought crime of disbelief, rather than making judgements based on ethical behavior.

I don't know if matter has always existed, I don't know if there have been trillions of universes or current alternate universes and I don't know where we came from or how we came to be. NO ONE who is living today truly knows or can comprehend. I don't believe in god because it does not sound like the most feasible explanation, and the god of bible is certainly just ridiculous mythology. If the god of the bible did exist I would never worship something so evil.

Bottom line: there are a lot of things we still don't understand, and it will take humanity much longer to discover the secrets of the universe. It's interesting to discuss these things but we will not know in our lifetimes, we haven't evolved that much yet, so just leave it as a mystery

There are many hypotheses about the origin of the Universe. They are only hypotheses and not scientific theories because these ideas have not been tested and verified. Using your mind to consider a premise is not the same thing as belief, nor is accepting a theory as being the best current explanation of an observable phenomenon. Neither one takes any faith at all. Faith is believing in things which can not be verified.

sorry im not gonna answer every question individualy. im just gonna say i dont have faith in the big bang and don't just all assume athiests believe in it. i am an athiest who dosnt even have a problem with a creator. just not a deity. and think the idea of the god of the bible as the creator or even an entity is rediculous. so you obviously misunderstand what atheism is.

until someone present sufficent evidence for a creator far away from the one in the bible then im going to say the big bang is the most likely answer to creation fot it has the most evidence.

and is at least logical

What you describe is the multiverse theory (no it wasn't just a family guy episode). That there are perhaps "parallel universes". To believe that the world has repeated itself is proven with logic. "big bang, inflation, collapse, repeat" is proven by astounding evidence and no, I won't reveal it here. you can do your own research, thank you. Energy has been around forever. And yes maybe some intelligence formed, but i highly doubt that the energy would condemn gays or nonbelievers. It's a logical fallacy to assume such a thing.