Positive point systems...are they always the best option OR do they teach that you should be...?

WARNING: LONG-WINDED!!!!

I think the "positive reinforcement" spin on things is so far out of hand these days, it nauseates me to think about how the next generation of adults will be.

In my opinion (and I’m not a therapist, so read at your own risk), the "you get a star/smily/whatever" option is great until a child is about 4-6 years old. And a "star" doesn’t mean "ice cream, toys, cookies, staying up until 10pm"... it means a star on a chart - nothing of tangible, physical value. When you start giving toys, then toys are expected. At that age, you should praise what they have accomplished ("look at all the stars! I’m impressed!"), and not what it took to get there - they know what it took to get there, and if they don’t, let them reason it out.

It’s a moral victory for a young child to see a chart full of stars for "perfect" behavior. And if a child is acting up, don’t threaten or blackmail with losing a star, but remind them gently that they want their star, and they should think about how they are acting. Don’t tell them "if you keep acting like this, no star for you!"... let them reason that out on their own with a simple reminder (not always easy, I know). Of course the star chart doesn’t work for every young kid - you have to find your version of the "star chart".

It pains me to see the 6-8 year old kids running around the department store, unsupervised, screaming and yelling, while the mother/father is non-chalantly saying "Now Mikey, you shouldn’t do that... be a good boy..." as Mikey tears the store apart, crashes into customers, and wreaks havoc in general. Positive reinforcement - bah!

So many kids are "positively reinforced" these days that I wonder what will happen when they actually need to face the unfortunate (but realistic) pain of negative comments or consequences, and of course the inevitable: failure to "do good" or "be good" at something.

In addition, you hit the nail right on the head - why would you reward someone for being a decent person? Sure, it’s great for all the therapists out there to want to make kids feel good about the good things they do. Positive reinforcement in that aspect is a great and powerful thing. That doesn’t mean you ignore the things that they do wrong. Consequences are a part of life. One-chance opportunities that are lost are a part of life. Making bad decisions is a part of life too, but they don’t always have a happy ending, and I believe that teaching a child that bad decisions are "ok" does nothing but set them up for big disappointment when they are faced with the reality of one.

For our daughter, we put together a list of things she likes, and things she does that we don’t like that she does. Once we had the two lists, we could draw lines from an action to a consequence. The list will be different for each child, and for each parent. It’s sometimes difficult to categorize a child’s actions into simple black and white, but our list has been a fluid work-in-progress.

We tried to come up with a fair list of actions/consequences, just so there was no question about punishment, and with the understanding that we as parents are allowed to change any punishment as we see fit. For example, she likes certain TV shows, and not doing homework (her school has a computer system that we can check daily) would constitute a night of no TV (that also means no TiVo, no VCR, no DVR, so it is a total loss, not a delayed gratification). Staying on the phone past bedtime constitutes losing phone privileges the following day (inbound and outbound calls). She isn’t reminded to get off the phone - we leave the responsibility up to her. If she honestly fails to remember to hang up by a certain time, then she still loses the phone. She likes afternoon snacks, and tends to leave stuff out all over the place (including cold cuts on the counter for hours... sheesh!). If the house is a mess when we get home from work, instead of us all doing the after-dinner dishes (which is the norm), she is responsible for ALL of the dishes - rinsing and putting in dishwasher, washing and drying pots and pans, putting them away, wiping down the counters, etc. However, if she surprises us (on occasion she does) by baking cookies, or by walking the dogs, or whatever, she knows that she’s earning brownie points that can eventually end up as an extra hour of phone time, extra hour of staying up, a couple extra bucks on her allowance etc. at OUR discretion (she chooses what she wants to do, and we choose how/if she is rewarded, and when. That avoids her trying to be extra-nice because she wants to go to that all-night party the following night.)

At 15, she gets an allowance, but it’s more of a salary than an allowance, and she knows that if she does her jobs poorly, her pay will be docked. If she takes the trash out, but leaves a mess in the trash can (or doesn

If the reward is something out of the ordinary, forget it. I agree with you.

The positive point system I have used involves earning back normal privileges. Your eldest didn't roll her eyes but she also had privileges because you knew you could trust her to behave. Your middle daughter can earn the privileges your eldest has by doing the same. Use your eldest as the standard. If you allow eldest to watch TV or stay up to a certain time then those are goals for your middle child to earn.

I have always balanced positive points with negative consequences when behavior goes too far the other direction. I also use logical consequences.

When my daughter refused to clean her room I set a timer and told her that anything still on the floor after 30 mintues was mine. At 30 minutes I walked in with a big garbage bag and started shoveling. I only had to do it once.

We also developed a family contract. This was no burden to my sons who stayed in line most of the time anyway. It was a problem for my daughter because she had issues with boundaries and accepting "no" for an answer. It was a slow process but it worked.

Point systems work but only if they are routinely enforced and the parents believe in what they are doing. If you did not like the positive point system you tried to use, your daughter probably sensed it. It became a matter of just waiting it out. If you tailor the point system to your beliefs about rewards then you can put some teeth behind it and your daughter will realize she has finally hit a serious situation.

In my experience, the system has to match the parental philosophy or it is useless.

Positive reward systems work very well with some children, but fail miserably with others. In addition, when there are multiple children in the household the positive system can create hard feelings between the siblings.

What I have found is a modified form of the positive system that utilizes both the positive and repercussion form of behavior modification. In this type the child is aware there are rewards to be had, but there are also repercussions for bad behavior. By modifying this format it can work to support your oldest child who seldom does anything wrong as well as encouraging the middle child to bring her behavior more in line with what is acceptable. It will especially help the youngest child who will soon realize there is more benefit to acting appropriately than otherwise. The concept of the plan is pretty straight forward, but there needs to be a modification of the rewards and deterents designed specifically for each child. For the oldest child she will need to do somewhat more to reap a reward because she is more obedient, however, she will still be awarded something for her efforts. The middle child will not need to do as much for a reward, but will also be placing herself in a position of not receiving a reward should her behavior warrant such. If she is good she gets something (or little by little can work toward something she really wants), or if she is not good she will either lose something she has already gained or will get a detention, timeout, a fine, grounding or something similar that she will understand is in accordance with the severity of the infraction. The rewards for the youngest would be somewhat easier to get, but would also be less grandious than those for the other two. You are able to illustrate the benefits of the positive reward system, but will also retain the effectiveness of the repercussion type system. It will take a while for you to find the exact parameters of the system and must be able to adjust the consequences according to the change in the child's behavior. Good luck.

I've always felt a reward system only works if it's something they should already do. Cleaning your own room doesn't deserve merit after a while. I say reward what really deserves it, punish things like rolling eyes at a teacher. Keep a nice middle ground where is no reward, but there is no punishment.

Frankly, I believe we do a disservice to our children by giving them something extra for doing the bare acceptable minimum. Such systems make it much harder on them when they get out in the real world and find out that life does not hand out medals for basic socially acceptable behavior.

I believe the formula is quite simple: Reward achievements such as good grades or good deeds, acknowledge (but don't reward) basic acceptable behavior, and punish (in whatever manner is appropriate) bad behavior.

In short:

Q. "Why does Jonny get to <whatever> and I don't?"

A. "Because you <insert unacceptable behavior here> while Johnny <Insert achievement here>".

You might also clue them in to the concept that this is how things work in the real world as well. Those who behave in a socially acceptable mannor get the good jobs, promotions, etc... while those who have attitude problems are destined to serve time in the dead end job market (or worse, become politicians... ).

There are none. The ludicrousness of seeking to cross a devout perception off as technological know-how! One of the fundamental tenets of technological know-how schooling is the clinical approach, and as Wikipedia states, the clinical approach "is situated on collecting observable, empirical, measurable proof, discipline to specified ideas of reasoning." Darwin's idea of evolution may also be studied and confirmed in this sort of method, however creationism are not able to for the reason that there may be NO real proof to again it up. The proven fact that there demands to be a "debate" in this topic rather blows my brain.

I think you're worrying about the issue of fairness amongst your children. The oldest might say "hey, I did the right thing, and you didn't give me a reward! What'g going on here?"

Well, I think, as parents, it is helpful to acknowledge that we do treat our children differently because they have different personalities and different needs and different problems. Our kids are usually smart enough to see that is true. And, I think, it will comfort them in the end. For they realize you do treat them as individuals, and not just one-size-fits-all. Adults certainly prefer to be treated as individuals, and our children are no different, as far as I can tell.

As to positive systems and no negative stuff. I'm not so sure. I think a good time out can be very helpful, as well as the reduction of other privileges. I want my kids to understand that we are a cooperative entity (the family) and we help each other out not because we have to, but because if we cooperate with each other, we all get more of what we want.

When my son was three or four or so, I once had to give him five time-outs in a row. He refused to go into timeout. I gave him ten seconds to get there, and then kept adding an additional timeout. This happened once. I never had to do it again. I never had to touch him (and have never touched him to punish or discipline him -- except possibly once, when I did lose it due to a very bad day and a very short fuse -- felt so bad I never did that again).

I guess I think the world is made of positive reward systems for things you want to encourage, and negative reward systems for things that are expected of all of us. People who don't do what is expected of us all, lose priveliges. I've seen other parents put toys in timeout. For us, we see what the kids really like, and they lose access to that a bit, if they don't do what's expected.

For things we want to encourage, we use other kinds of rewards. Mostly praise, though. We're not big on allowance and bribes. I explain to them the value of doing better. My son, for example, has had trouble learning to read. He recently became an utter gymnastics addict. So I tell him how learning to read can help him learn gymnastics. If he does what I want him to, he'll be better able to do the things he wants to do. It's similar with piano. Music is expected of my kids, until they finish high school. It's like reading, writing and arithmetic (do we add computers to the 3 rs now?). Obviously, all these things support one-another. It wasn't so obvious about gymnastics, but now I find out how much money you can make as a private coach in a gym (more than I make) and I'm not so unhappy at all the time and money we spend on him. Of course, I'm not ready to tell him that yet. It's still a privilege, and I can make his access to the privilege dependent on his performance on his school work, music, and chores.

I also think we, as parents, must take a long term view here. Some children just take longer to learn the advantage of cooperation (and parents have to cooperate with kids, too; it doesn't go just one way), than others. It took my son longer than my daughter. So patience helps, too. We have to make time to be patient with our kids. If not, they can tell we are short-changing them, and then they'll really act out.

We must stand firm on principle, and keep our messages clear and consistent. No giving in sometimes and not others. This teaches kids uncertainty, and they try to rebel more, hoping they'll outlast you. I read that kids ask for things on average about 17 times before most parents give in. Well, I don't know the exact number, but a lot, and a lot of giving in. So, when I say no, now, I mean it. I won't say it unless I'm serious.

Unfortunately, this has also taught my kids to expect this from other adults. They don't expect adults to lie to them, and believe the adults who do lie (say a dentist claiming this won't hurt and it's almost over), hate kids. So I have to help them figure out that some adults do lie because they hate causing kids pain, and they don't know how to talk to kids very honestly.

Civility is expected because that is the culture we want in our families, and in our society. We want it because it works. I think our children can be taught to empathize with others, and brought to understand the value of civility through this process of imagining what it feels like to be treated that way (the golden rule thing). Once they get it, they get it. But it can take a lot of work. So stay commited. Stay patient. Ask them to tell you what the reasoning is behind civility, and work with them until they can say it on their own, their own words (not parroting you). Give them practice exercises. Make a game of it. Be superpolite, just for fun.

My kids got a kick out of the game when I taught them to address my wife in this fashion: "oh my darling wonderful mother, who is so kind and beautiful, would you please