Can Martial Arts training?

As I mentioned in Pugpaws self defense martial arts question, every person has a self-preservation instinct.

When a person makes a decision, they are using a combination of factors. Instinct sometimes plays a predominant part. Other times it can be ignored or bypassed.

The fanatic death cults ISDS mentioned already have demonstrated that self preservation or the societal ban on murder, is easily bypassed there. Humans have competing drives, goals, emotions, and instincts going on. Things are more complicated than a single what if scenario can provide.

Every martial arts style, judging by various sources, has their own particular brand of training philosophy and methodology. Who is to say what part of it does what to a person's decision making ability outside the dojo. You'd have to break down the specific training methodology of the school and then go from there. Which brings us to another issue.

How to deal with people who have cross trained or graduated from multiple dojos, styles, arts, and lineages. Who is to say what training methodology they will favor. All? Some? None? Synthesis/Hybrid?

To know how martial arts training affects a person's performance and capability in a non-simulated event, one would necessarily have to know which martial arts training the person actually has. Hapkido doesn't do things the same as Bak Mei and Bak Mei doesn't do things the same as BJJ when learning.

Bad habits are picked up from years and years of doing the same thing, over and over. If they knew it was a bad habit, they would have stopped or changed it. But once you get a bad habit, it doesn't really go away all that easily.

The question on how MA affects this matter is too general and broad. A style can be broken down into various components, but trying to compare every style and art in existence at the same time, is not really feasible.

If you want to know about how people act in life and death situations, read up on Dave Grossman. As mentioned before.

@other commenters: My gist of what clowns is asking is that in self defense contexts, similar to what pugpaws asked about, does martial arts training methodology improve or hurt a person's ability to make the right decisions.

This would necessarily apply to protecting when protecting is the right decision. And it would apply to killing, if the situation calls for it.

For example, many people here know that tournament based martial arts train their people to obey tournament rules. Some people think these rules negatively affect performance in a street like environment, where there are no agreed upon rules. Some people think not.

@Cobra: I would tend to agree on the matter of natural instincts. Self-preservation and flight, fight, freeze, panic would be generally the instincts evolved under nature, in pre-historical times.

Kicking wouldn't necessarily bring in food to prevent starvation or beat off predators. No matter whether it broke wood or not, since fighting an evolved predator without tools would get you hurt if not crippled. And in that day and age, infection would soon set in. Not a really survival viable strategy. Tools and fire were far surer bets. That and numerical superiority.

It's not a natural instinct that produces a learned reflex. It's just muscle memory. It's how people can do something and not have to think about doing it consciously. Like breathing and heart beats. It goes to the brain, but to the back of the brain, not the frontal cortex. A faster decision results in a relative improvement in total speed.

On the matter of societal conditioning, most societies condition their members to abhor violence and to not resist society's authority. It's where things like the nudity taboo comes in. Or the existence of a conscience that stops cannibalism and murder. Societal conditioning is strong enough that it can bypass hard wired instincts like self-preservation. Some people have been noted to starve, rather than kill each other and eat their own species. Whenever there is a conflict between two competing instincts, the brain usually picks the more powerful one.

Part of self-defense is getting people to trust their instincts and not what they see on tv. On the part of women, as attested to by some things pugpaws mentioned, not even the fact or potential of bodily harm to them will make them break the societal taboos against hurting other human beings. That's some powerful conditioning. But what can be conditioned, can also be unconditioned with more conditioning. Basic behavioral psychology.

Can they reduce, diminish, or disable, the wiring? I'm not sure that I would put it that way. I would lean more to changing or rewiring for the better... because I want to. But if one can happen, then it is only logical that the other can too. Below is my reasoning for the changing whichever way it may go.

Instinctual behavior can indeed be changed with consistent physical exercises and psychological influencing.

The point of martial art training is to make adjustments to the student's physical instinctual reactions. This is why there must be the consistent training, it is what adjusts the spinal responses to the different types of physical stimuli. This is why even if the person behaves in the manner of fearing any form of fighting will automatically respond once the physical threat has impacted them. (This takes place because the response route runs from the sensation to the spine and back, completely leaving out the brain and it's 'necessary' computations and assessment of the situation.) I hear time and time again, even from the 'masters' of systems saying that martial arts train in the natural behavior for self defense. That is absolutely untrue. If martial arts were natural responses, we would NOT have to work so much at it to become proficient. We would also not have to work consistently to keep the skills gained.

I do feel that the adult neurological responses to situations that are lightly threatening to mortally threatening are much more difficult to influence or change, because they are not only born instinct, but also 'trained' instinct based off of the societal influence forming the thought chain and synaptic pathways.

In younger people (children) the instinctual pathways can be influenced easier than adults. That is because they are still forming their processes or synaptic pathways. In adults more of a 'brainwashing' approach must be taken to make the adjustments, because they have already formed their 'permanent' thought processes. It is possible, and we've seen it happen throughout society, most notably when dealing with cults, or some form of religious extremism. It is also used in many fiction stories involving military and other secret organizations, which are somewhat based off of rumor of events that have taken place in history.

The synaptic paragraph is where I get more of a no to your question. It takes an almost religious devotion to the martial arts, and a 100% commitment to survival to be able to adjust one's own instincts; and this is not something the majority of martial artists do. (NOTE: The majority is all inclusive, the world over. There are many who do, and they would be yes, but there are still enough to be a no.)

Ultimately, I don't see martial arts as diminishing or changing a notion such as the one the of the man dying to save his son in a negative manner. I say this because of the moral influence of the most renowned martial art societies, (East Asian). It is taught in these systems that truth, and just actions in all behavior, as well as sacrificing one self for another is honorable, and will repay the soul in this and the next life. People more often than not aspire to these teachings in the martial arts, as opposed to pure self preservation and a solely objective outlook on life forgoing any attempt to help another in need.

I think it's possible, but more than likely it rarely ever happens. What I see in your words is something I would describe as a self-sacrificial love. Martial arts doesn't teach that. It will teach and prepare someone to protect it, but anything selfless has to come from a spiritual place in the heart.

Martial arts is more geared towards protection. Protect your home, yourself, your family, your loved one(s), your valuables... whether or not you use that in a complete self-sacrificial way depends on the person. In a real situation you don't have the luxury to think about what you're going to do. It's nice to just be able to say yeah you will sacrifice yourself, but the action, not the words, has to come instantly from the subconscious.

Some people have that and some people don't, even in your mostly Godly of people. Actually I've found that people who tend to profess their faith so openly all the time are the least spiritual of everyone, even worse, because I see a lot of hypocrisy. These are people who are not willing to sacrifice themselves no matter how much they say they could. You can't prepare for a moment like that. It has come purely from your heart and from who you really are.

Actually martial art is designed to undo your biological wiring.

For example, if people are confronted with an unexpected attack what do they do? 99% freeze. In martial arts this is unacceptable. You need to be able to react and at least block and/or evade. A counter would be nice too.

How many people who are not trained when you grab them by their shoulder from behind will turn around and step right into their attacker rather than turn and step away while turning?

How many people can step into a kick rather than away to take away the power?

How many people are comfortable close in with another person?

These are only a few of the most obvious things you will find with beginners. As you become more advanced and learn the fine points of a technique you will find over and over that your initial reaction is always different from what you should be doing to put yourself into a better position during self defense. This is why we train. We are rewiring ourselves.

I don't think so but I do think on the flip side that martial arts training can make some people more violent and more aggressive and less caring in general. You sometimes see this with people that already have some issues and problems with things like empathy and authority and their approach to violence and how they view all that. So I won't teach those types or have them in my school. However I don't think such training makes those that I do teach less willing to take on a responsibility or act when they need to take action because their feeling of self-presavation is greater or kicks in. If anything I think it makes them mentally stronger and more able to take on something and meet it head on rather than shrink back from doing so.

Actually, many styles of martial arts build techniques off of one's instincts. I know for a fact that krav maga and american kenpo schools do this.

An example may be a reaction to a push. If someone pushes you, your first instinct may be to raise your hands up as if in a defensive gesture. A technique then builds off of that initial movement in order to neutralize the attack.

In terms of mindset, i think it depends on the individual. It helps to train under stress to get used to reacting under an adrenaline rush.

I believe only a strong spirtual faith combined with behavior modification techniques is something can alter the type of behavior you're describing. The reason I believe so is the work I've done in Drug and Alcohol Rehab, my psych classes, and the general impression I get from true stories regarding cults and fanaticism.

I believe martial arts training is a form of behavior modification, so if it's combined with a very rigid and strong spiritual aspect it could do what you're talking about.

My answer is simple, but based on logic.

When your mind/body is not under stress, you tend to reasonable, logical, and use the available data to make a decision or take an action.

So what happens when your mind/body IS under stress? The answer is that your training kicks in, you revert to your training.

You also have to remember that our biological instincts of self preservation and is different in all people and largely influenced by environmental factors.

James

We are all born with a basic fight or flee response to danger. This pumps adrenalin into our systems, our pupils dilate, and our heart rates increase. Martial arts makes certain situations less scary. They become familiar, through repeated exposure. This training also gives us tools to help us through these situations, making them less dangerous. So, in a way, we do just what you propose. However, we substitute a better alternative. The original biology is still there. It just does not kick in in situations that our martial arts training has equipped us to handle.

Can it: Absolutely, through poor training. Practice makes permanent. If you practice the wrong response, under moments of severe stress (initiating the Fight/Flee/Posture/Freeze response), your actions are dictated by practice.

A normal father practices racing for his child when they're little and scooping them up before their big wheel goes in the street. The psychology of the mind says that if a prairie dog looks out of its burrow and sees a shadow, it instinctively hides; it may only be right in perceiving a threat 0.001% of the time, but if it instead stayed up every time, it would be easy prey. We are similarly biologically conditioned. It's our societal pressures that override it. If instead, the father practices not racing for his child (succumbing to societal pressure to not hover or smother his child with his concerns), and lets his child go into the street, then his response will be such that, when danger arises and a car comes speeding down the block, he's not equipped to handle it, and his child will be hit.

Let's take a more simple example. In America, the standard greeting from afar is a wave and a pleasant smile. We're conditioned from a young age that, when someone waves at us, we wave back. How many times, then, have you been in public when someone you think you recognize (you don't, of course, but it takes a moment to realize it) waves at you, and you wave back, only to realize they were waving to someone directly behind you? Why does this happen? When we were young, we were taught to respond to a wave and a polite smile with a wave and a polite smile back. When we did well, we were rewarded with attention and pleasantries. We actively seek out that reward. By the same virtue, the prairie dog is rewarded with being the one that didn't get eaten. And the father who rushes after his child is rewarded with a hug and a live child.

So... What happens if we break these cycles? What happens if we condition ourselves in another fashion? Well, consider gun disarms. Thomas Wayne, trained in Bakabakashi Ryu Jujutsu (yup, that's "Stupid School Jujutsu") is taught a standard gun disarm, which he performs 10,000 times and now has ingrained. He walks out from a late showing of The Lone Ranger with his wife Martha and son Bruce, when a mugger steps from the shadows. "Your money or your life" he says as he cocks the gun. Thomas, already in front of his wife and kids, has the gun pointed straight at him. He quickly turns to the side and covers the gun and, as he goes to twist, the gun fires. Thomas disarms the man, kicks him while he's down, feeling quite manly and proud despite the adrenaline racing, and turns to his loving family. There, on the ground, is little Bruce Wayne covered in mommy's blood. Later on, he'll grow up to be Man (Having lost only half his parents, he becomes only half the man he was destined to be).

All joking aside, this is one case where often martial arts training fails: the gun disarm. The disarm teaches only to move the gun away from you, not away from the people you may have a responsibility to protect. His good intentions, in this case, cost Martha Wayne her life. A proper shift in focus would have given Thomas the awareness of his family's position, but he'd not been taught that part, not been told to practice for it, and thus his training failed him. This is a case where it changed his response for the worse.

I can also attest to cases where instructors have told students, "If someone wants what you have and has a gun, give it to them, and they'll leave you alone." Uhm... What? No. They'll keep taking! Alright, so let's assume we follow this line of thinking.

So let's say they practice this exchange of money at the threat of violence (aka Martial Arts Classes) for the next 6 months. Then the student finds himself in that situation: "Give me your wallet." He hands over the wallet. "Now her." The man takes his wife's purse and hands it over, meanwhile she's irate and shouting obscenities. "Man, shut her up or I'll shoot you." So he covers her mouth and she starts fighting, so the assailant pistol whips her. Now she's unconscious and he's got... what? The man's committed an assault.

What if, instead, we just assume that the man with the gun intends to kill you. If you have a clear line of escape, throwing your wallet in the opposite direction will force him to turn for it. If he does, you can escape the other way. If that's all he wants, he'll go for the wallet. If it's not, you need to act, and you know it. Even if he does turn for the wallet, your family can run while you go after the assailant (he'd have your ID if he has your wallet -- reasonable expectation that he might track you down).