Martial Arts Ranking Question?

Good question although I don't like the McDojo reference. Correct, it takes approximately 5 years to go from no experience in the martial arts to a black belt. It takes 2 years to go from 1st Dan to 2nd Dan and 3 years to go from 2nd Dan to 3rd Dan. So in the same time frame it takes to go from no experience to 1st Dan, you can go from 1st Dan to 3rd Dan. It is because when trying to get 1st Dan black belt, you have no knowledge, technique or skill in the martial arts. Once you have achieved 1st Dan Black belt, you have mastered the basics and are learning advanced level techniques and poomse.

It is a lot like high school versus college. Why does it take 12 years to get a high school diploma but only 4 years to get a college diploma. Well, at 5 years old, you have no knowledge of math, English, history, etc. At 18, your ability to learn is much higher, you already know the basics and learning at a higher level is at a more advanced rate.

Fight them! That's the only way to truly asses someone's skill level. I say if they can tag you (hit lightly or almost hit) in an area that would cause severe injury or knockout in three moves or less, their skill level is significantly higher than yours. Most of the traditional martial arts don't have belt systems or ranking systems. Only designation of teacher and student. If you look at the very traditional styles like many of the KungFu styles, old style Japanese martial arts, and other traditional arts from around the globe the only distinction of rank was teacher and student. Basically the more traditional the style, the less or a prominent ranking system. One example is the Japanese martial arts. Originally there were no ranks at all because there were differently ranked samurai learning them. From there they progressed to menkyo certificates, which could take 20 years in some styles for the FIRST one. From there Jigaro Kano introduced the kyu ranking system into Japanese martial arts. Then from there, the belt system was developed. In a historical sense ranking systems are actually pretty new. Just train hard and forget about rank!

I have personally seen situations where high ranking dan ranks were bestowed on several black-belts for the purpose of them accepting them and in turn helping to establish a larger foot print of schools, instructors, and students for an organization and style. This was one of the reasons why I maintained my connection to Japanese martial arts while studying Philippine martial arts and eventually opted to stay with Japanese martial arts.

I have seen first hand how even within some of the Japanese organizations there is a lot of politics and in-fighting at times and seen people's study of the martial arts thrown into a quandary through no fault of their own. I have also been approached by two of these organizations when I was competing and offered higher ranking if I would affiliate myself, my school, and students with them. So the situation that you allude to in your question does exist and happens. A lot really depends I think on several things like how strong are the ties that they and their instructors have with that organization as well as who is running the organization. Unfortunately these things change, people die or move on, new people assume leadership for an organization and sometimes those changes are for the better while at other times they can be for the worse. As this happens the students and instructors that are members fall victim to some of these things through no fault of their own except for being members.

These situations usually happen or take place behind the scenes and beyond the control of the students and instructors that they greatly impact I think and hurt a lot of innocent individuals. This is why I have not belonged to any of them for some time and while I maintain a cordial relationship with some of them I continue to not be a member and become involved or embroiled in any of this and problems brought on by them.

Typically it takes 3-4 years to train from white belt to black belt. Some people train faster than the average, some train slower, it all depends on the individual students.

The minimal training time required to move from 1st Dan to 2nd Dan is 1 year. The minimal training time required to move from 2nd Dan to 3rd Dan is 2 years. (and so on and so forth) The similarities that you noticed in the time GM's take to move through the Dans is NOT a McDojo indication.

Could you be referring to this guy?

http://www.ninjutsu.com/shihan-van-donk.shtml

Despite the many black belts in other arts. in Ninjutsu alone this is his resume:

In 8 years he went from 5th degree to 10th degree

5 yrs to reach 11th degree

1 year to reach 12th degree

1 year to reach 13th degree

2 years to reach 14th degree

and 8 months to reach 15th degree

Yes, this is what happens in an unregulated industry. I don't know any thing about this person's style, but I have to believe this advancement is a little to fast.

Cheetah brings up an intersting point. I'm used to a style where there is a time pyramid to advance: 2 years to get to 2nd, 3 to 3rd, 4 to 4th, etc. I think many styles do this, but sometimes people list themselves as a "founder" and are not subject to traditional advancement rules. Others flat out lie.

The martial arts are a young man's pursuit. It is hard to do martial arts when you're in your 40s, 50s, and 60s. (or 70s and 80s).

Dr. Jigoro Kano, the founder of Kodokan Judo, established a black belt ranking system of 1st degree black belt to 10th degree black belt.

Basically, all your competition days in Judo are usually confined between 1st to 5th degree black belt (most world champions and olympians are 5th degree black belts).

But Dr. Kano said that age should not restrict your ability in Judo. Just because your competition days are over doesn't mean your Judo days are over? So usually after 5th degree black belt, it is what you contribute to the art that determines your rank. In Japan a 10th degree black belt in Judo is rare, hard to earn, and usually awared to Judoka in their 60s and 70s.

So the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th degree black belts in Judo are usually the teachers, innovators, philosophers, and contributors towards the improvement in Judo. The lesser ranks are killing themselves winning gold medals and world championships.

I think it totally depends on the dojo and instructor doing the teaching. Some dojos aren't as dedicated to the art form as others. Although one exception I can think of would be Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. From my understanding, it can take nearly a lifetime to reach master level in that art.

I can only speak for myself. I'm likely one of the people you are referring to. I grew up in South Carolina. In my home town, there was either one or two martial arts schools or none at all for many years. I studied where I could, and when I could. That is likely why it took me nearly 8 years to reach Shodan. Then I studied privately with Larry Hartsell, one of the original students of Bruce Lee. The dojo I originally got my Shodan in closed a year after I got my Shodan. I trained and ran my own dojo full time beginning in 1973. After some time I found Shihan James "Ron" Cherry in Charleston, S.C. From the early 1980's to the mid 1980's I was trained personally by him and Shihan Kenneth "Ken" Burt. My training was 3-5 days a week, privately. I was able to accomplish this because I was not running a dojo during that time. I owned a painting contracting business. while my employees were painting, I was at the dojo. My employees robbed me blind, but I still made a small living while receiving many hours of private training. The dojo Was in Ashly Plaza Mall in Charleston. It was required to be open mall hours, which meant from 10:00am to 10:00pm daily. They had a large martial arts supply store in the front of the dojo. During the day there were no classes and few customers in the store. That allowed Shihan Cherry or Shihan Burt to train me. During that training I was taught Shorinji-Toraken-do Kempo (roots mainly in Shorinji-Tetsu-Ken-Ryu). I was also taught Japanese Jujitsu, Karate, and several weapons (Bo, Jo, Sai, Tonfa, Yawara, Tanto, and both Iaido and Kenjutsu).

It was a year or two after i move to Charleston for this private training that I was promoted in several arts during the next few years. I moved to the D.C. area and lived south of D.C. in Virginia for 23 years. From 1985 to 1995, i was still training and a member of Shihan Cherry's organization. He came and taught seminars several times a year. While there he trained me before returning home. I also traveled to Charleston, S.c. for more training and to attend seminars. So most of my rank advancement began in the 1980's through the 1990's. I can see how reading my resume that it could seem odd. But this is what happened.

I have been dedicated to the training and teaching of the martial arts for many years. I closed my commercial dojo in 1997 to return to college. Since then I have kept teaching a few hand picked students. In late 2008, I moved to Cumming, Georgia. Since moving to Georgia, i have not attempted to take any regular students. Being retired gives me the freedom to train any time I want. It also is the reason why i have the time to answer questions here. It seems like there are three things that have brought many attacks on my background. Those three things are my claim of nearly 44 years of training, My claim or high ranks in several arts, and The fact that I have and often spend many hours answering questions on Y/A. Now I think that I have answered these reasonably and openly. anyone that still has reservations is in my opinion not wanting to believe me. I have also made it clear that anyone is welcome to come check me out for themselves. i have nothing to hide. I'm not violent. I don't accept challenges from others. But they are welcome to come and see as well as ask any questions. If they would like me to demonstrate my skills, that is fine. If they are looking for a fight, I'll ask them politely to leave. If however they should be stupid enough to choose to attack me, then I would treat that attack with an appropriate response.

Any questions anyone wishes to ask can be sent to my regular email address pugpaws2@yahoo.com. I ask only that if you contact me that you be sure to identify yourself by your Y/A name. Any questions will be answered unless they come off as being nasty or out of line.

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