B&A: Are Mary Sues described in first person narrative, really Mary Sues (products of bad writing)?

You make a valid point and one that I totally agree with. To me the whole Mary Sue/Gary Stu issue is somewhat silly. As you stated above a character described by another character who is smitten with him is going to 'look' a lot better than a character the narrator doesn't like. In other respects a character can be an absolute prototypical Mary Sue and work perfectly within the storyline, so again there is no issue. Beginning writers should be sure to develop their characters in all ways but it's important to make them realistic, not fit some formula.

For example; I personally write contemporary fantasy. If my character comes across as being without flaws it may not matter to the overall flow of the story. Take your typical Paladin; a church knight. Obviously the knight is just a man with flaws like the rest of us but if you only see him in situations where he is defending the weak or serving in his church, his fear of deep water or gnawing self doubts about his faith may never come up. They may, but they don't have to. It depends on the story being told. If the overall storyline is epic, we may never spend any time with fireside conversations. Also, back to your original point, the paladin may never speak of his issues to others and thus 'seem' to be a Gary Stu, so long as they don't cross deep water or listen to a heretic preaching the reader may never know, nor need to, to enjoy the story being told.

The point is that characters don't need to fit a mold. They need to be believable but not forced into having obvious flaws just so they won't be labled a 'Mary Sue'. New writers should be encouraged to write and to tell good stories. Issues with the characters can wait until the rewrites, just like spelling and grammar issues, because that's when the lack of flaws or 'Mary-Sue-ishness' will become obvious, even to them.

I agree. When a character is being described by another character (especially if they are in love) they will very rarely have something bad to say about each other, whether it's looks or personality.

The writer falls for this sometimes, I think because they get so involved with the character (in first), they write them as Mary Sues, simply because they're writing from the character's perspective. There have been some books where the character has done bad things, but has magically been let off or whatever they have done, it turned out they did it for a good reason. In others the characters have been given faults that seem to have just been added to make the character more realistic, which doesn't work. I would say this is a product of bad writing.

In third person, the author has much more freedom to describe the character as they are truly seen because they are the by-stander of the story and the author creates a more realistic character to follow.

When the character can do no wrong is when the author has developed a Mary Sue!

The definition of a Mary-Sue is very much subjective, in fact, I would argue such a concept does not actually exist. It is something that has increasingly become the norm in characterizations within bad writing that we have this general concept of the Mary-Sue.

In the first-person narrative, given the possibility that the narrator is biased or unreliable, the reader, having realized this possible bias, should take this into account when making any judgment on a character. However, I think there should be an ironic awareness of this, if it is obviously unintended and unrealized within the book, in such that the first-person narrative is intended to be objective, or in situations such as the narrator hates the character, and the character still manages to be a Mary-Sue, then it's pretty much a Sue.

My definition of a Sue is an idealized self-insert. Hence, the attitude the writer has towards the Sue can be inferred. If the writer fawns on the character and all the other characters do so, we can infer that this is a Sue. Some characters might fit all the descriptions of a Sue, but the as long as the author gives him/her depth (like Eowyn in LoTR) or used as a symbol of goodness or virtue (like how Ophelia is a symbol of innocence), then I would argue that he/she is not a Sue.

It is a very valid point. It doesn't explain everything. Edward for example, sure Bella is in love with him so he would be perfect to her, but it is also stated as part of the vampire lore that they are perfect and beautiful to humans. So we know it's not just her thinking he's handsome when he's not that handsome simply because she loves him. The example of Katniss is much fairer because we never get to really meet Prim. All we have is Katniss' word for it that she's such a sweet girl.

Then there's the Mary Sue and cliche fest that you get in House of Night. Don't know if you read that. If not, just don't. Or actually do. You'll be much more careful what you call "cr@p" after you've read those! Zoey is the first person narrator. But everything about her screams "I'm a Mary suesque walking cliche". Her every thought, her every word, her pack of friends, her army of undead "drop-dead gorgeous" boyfriends, everything about her and the plot. I put her through the Mary Sue test actually for the fun of it. She ticks every single box. It's proper scary. No question there. First person or not, it's Mary Sue all the way.

Whoa, I never thought of Prim as being a Mary-sue, but now you mention it I can see it.

That's a good point. But I guess that kind of shows the good authors from a bad one. I mean, as long as the character is in the story a lot (say Edward) we should be able to see their flaws even if the narrator can't. For example, in Twilight Edward stalks Bella, Bella finds it cute. Hopefully, anyone with a brain can tell that's not cute and they should really call the cops on them. Maybe it's just me, but I consider stalking a flaw, but the way Meyer presents it, it makes it seems like that's nothing at all. I know Edward isn't perfect, it's Meyer/Bella making him a Mary Sue, not him himself. (plus, if someone finds stalking cute...don't listen to their judgment)

If you look at the The Hunger Games (just the first book, forget Catching Fire and Mocking Jay) mostly everything we know about Prim is by what Katniss says/thinks about her. Prim isn't really there to do something to show her flaws (and hopefully, a sister wouldn't be thinking "What's wrong with her?") So, there it's kind of hard to tell. But, if when she was in the story more, Prim started to show traits that annoyed the reader and Katniss, it would be a little better.

Well, this is actually a pretty good question.

I think it depends. Yes, in first person POV, we are going to see a lot of bias when we look at all the characters because of the lens we are seeing them through. But, actions do speak louder than words. You can figure out if a character is, in fact a Mary/Gary Sue/Stu by what they say, what they do, what other characters say or think about them, etc. (I'm getting this stuff from character analysis stuff I had to do in Lit, so bear with me here.)

In the Hunger Games (to me, it's kind of obvious that Edward is a Gary Stu, so I'm not going to go there), I never actually thought of Prim as a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue, to me, isn't made by how many people praise her, or how the author loves or praises her. It's by the characteristics of the person.

And Prim can actually be considered a Mary Sue, now that I think about it, because she is loved by everybody, doesn't really do all that much 'wrong', etc. But all characters have to have some level of Sue-ness.

Even if a narrator or the main character is seeing somebody through rose tinted glasses, you can still, to some extent, make up your own mind about a character (whether you or dislike him), and whether or not she/he is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. It doesn't matter how the narrator sees the character - well, it kind of does, but in this situation, not as important - because you can analyze the characters by yourself at the end of the day, through their actions, and what other characters say about them, how other characters act around them.

I have discovered a wonderful way to figure out Mary Sues, for the most part. The Mary Sue litmus test. http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm

You can't answer questions involving the author, but you can answer a lot of them for other characters to see exactly how Sue-ish they are. (I used it with my own characters, just to be sure)

For me, it doesn't matter how much the narrator praises somebody (though it does make me want to throw something at said narrator), it's the actions and other stuff that determines a Sue-ness level.

Long enough rant for you?

Well if the book isn't written in the view of the person who is being called a Mary Sue, we can't really judge. Prim isn't Mary Sue. She was just represented as Mary Sue because of Katniss. Katniss loved her little sister. I'm pretty sure that she had flaws, but Katniss didn't mention them, because in her eyes, her sister was perfect. Don't MOST parents think their kids are perfect little angels? But are they really? No. So we have to blame the parents for painting this picture. Even though Katniss is the bomb, I'm going to have to say, that we have to blame her for creating this picture. But I'm sure Prim has many flaws.

BUT: Ginny Weasley is SUCH a Mary Sue.

I think they do end up being Mary Sues. Yes, you can be close to someone, but you can also see the flaws of that person as well.

In Twilight, she was saying how beautiful he was before she was even "in love" with him. And since she "loves" him, she'll say how amazing he is.

In Hunger Games, Prim is pretty much described as a Mary Sue because Katniss describes her as such. But the thing is, there is no person who absolutely loves their sister that much ALL the time. I have two sisters and one of them is my best friend, yet I have no problem saying what's wrong with her or fighting with her.

No matter how close you are to someone, you will see and say their flaws. When they rub you the wrong way, you'll say it. Even more if they are *that* close to you. I mean, think about it. Who is your best friend? You boyfriend? Girlfriend? Whatever? You're very close to them, right? Is there ever a time when you wouldn't praise them? Is there ever a time when you would say they annoy you because of whatever? If you say no, then you obviously aren't close enough to them.