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Al P
Lv 7
Al P asked in Science & MathematicsPhysics · 9 years ago

Puzzling violation of relativity?

Steve is upset because he has no

coffee with his breakfast so his

wife says: "Take off and buy some."

Off he goes lickity split in his space

plane at 0.99999c to a well known coffee

bean planet (4LY) orbiting proxima centauri

that sells coffee. Coffee beans are extinct

on earth due to GW. When he gets back he

makes some coffee and continues eating breakfast

with his family. He went into the past.

Was Einstein wrong?

Update:

No, you're going to have to think a little harder than that.

This is a serious question.

Update 2:

OzoneGuy:

There are no violations of natural

law. If I said "how" Steve went into

the past I'd be answering my own

question. Let me correct your sentence,

an expression of prejudice: "It is not a serious

question." To: It may or may not be a

serious question.

Update 3:

Thanks to everyone who answers. This is my gedanken,

but I am sure someone has considered this in the past.

Hint:

Relativity is not the only thing that need be

considered. There is a law that could effectively

outrank relativity in this case.

Update 4:

Many reasonable humans, including scientists, may agree as follows:

1.

Many times prediical thinking impedes appromimate knowing.

2.

Currently, the probability of moving any marcroscopic lifeform

any where near the speed of light let alone measuring ITS

effective time dilation is remote in the extreme.

3.

My sentence "Coffee beans are extinct on earth due to GW."

is a form of comic relief; it has no bearing on this problem.

4.

Here is what some great humans have said about knowing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbtgNTmNuIw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05WS0WN7zMQ

Update 5:

Correcting typo above:

1.

Many times prejudicial thinking impedes appromimate knowing.

Update 6:

4/27/2012

Thank you for answering Scythian.

Yes, your special relativity calculations

are correct. My question, 'Was Einstein

wrong?' is a metaphorical question. Indeed, I

believe Einstein's is correct. Nonetheless,

when Steve gets back to the coordinates of

his family in about two weeks, his family and

breakfast did not age as much as he did.

Therefore, theoretically speaking, relativity ALONE

is not enough to solve this problem involving past time.

By the way, I'm very impressed by the unbiased nature

of your answer which might turn out to be the greater lesson

learned as a result of this, my question.

Update 7:

Thanks for your thoughtful, again, unbiased answer pegminer.

Steve's human family remains on earth during his

trip. Yes, unconventional thinking is allowed. I like

your creative ways of considering this. Please note,

Steve must finish his original breakfast.

Update 8:

There is a compete path, discrete acceleration integral, from

Steve's kitchen to the coffee shop and back again that is

exactly equivalent to the special relativity calculation herein, but

the other law theoretically renders relativity not applicable in,

this, my thought experiment. Yes! indeed! I included it, but I didn't

need to. This is no trick question. My intent was to fire up creative

thinking.

Let me be crystal clear: For me, relativity is more law than

theory. I have great respect for ALL Einstein's work.

Update 9:

Would anyone CARE, notice that word, to WORK OUT

this two part question/detail above?

Part#1: Why two events effectively did not change

in the past for Steve and his family?

Part#2: The minimization of prejudicial thinking?

Update 10:

*********************************************

I think that makes three of us Scythian.

Prior to his departure, his family, "matter", is

contained in closed system K equivalent to open system

earth K; it runs at earth time interval ΔT. At T=0, Steve leaves

via Einstein systems K'' although this need not be the case.

Soon after, closed system K effectively becomes system K'

running at ΔT' ≈ 0

Update 11:

They cut me off:

4 Answers

Relevance
  • 9 years ago
    Favorite Answer

    Let's get some basic special relativity stuff out of the way first. If Steve travels at 0.99999c to a planet which is 4LY away and back, then the trip took him 8 years. That is, his wife and children would be 8 years older by the time he's rejoined them for breakfast. Meanwhile, the gamma factor is 0.00447, so for him, it's less than a 2 week trip. Now, the odd statement, "he went into the past", which is followed by the question, "Was Einstein wrong?" This comes close to being an example of what physicist Pauli once said, "This isn't even wrong!" In this scenario, Steve himself does not ever go into the past of either the Earth's rest frame nor his own moving frame. However, a technical argument can be made that when he reversed course from the planet to return home, part his EXTENDED moving frame dipped into the past on Earth. But this is a 100% abstraction, it actually has no physical meaning, because it presupposes the existence of a relativistic moving frame that is able to, in a blink of an eye, realign itself with the entire universe the moment he reversed course. As a matter of fact, because of this, the "Twin Paradox" is resolved, because in spite of a seeming symmetry, there isn't one, because such a sudden realignment of the relativistic moving frame only occurs with the moving twin, not with the one that stayed home.

    So, the best answer to your question is, "No, Einstein's equations of special relativity are not wrong, as, technically speaking, part of Steve's moving frame went into the past back on Earth when he reversed course. However, as physics goes, it's a flawed concept leading to problems with accelerations that necessitated the development of general relativity."

    Edit: For clarity, see link about the Lorentz transform, which are spacetime rotation matrices. Hopefully, that will shed some light on what is meant by "part of Steve's moving frame being in the past back on Earth". Just consider the simple transform from {x, t} to {x', t'}.

    Edit 2: The Lorentz transform is the only kind of special relativity transform that I know of, I don't see how Steve can "travel into the past" using only special relativity considerations and not going faster than light. Maybe I'll learn something new from this.

  • 9 years ago

    Well, I'm glad to see that that you're now saying that he's two weeks older--it bothered me that it will still be time for his breakfast--so presumably he has had other meals in the interim.

    If we're allowed somewhat unconventional thinking, we could presume that he has a non-traditional family. For all we know, his wife may be a computer program or video projection (in our more liberal future world marriage is not necessarily between a live man and woman, but could be between entities of various types) that he could pause or re-set to the moment when he left.

    Another possibility (although in this one he doesn't really go into the past) is that his wife and family took a trip at the same time he did, only at a much higher rate of speed, so they aged less than he did. This is unappealing, however, since there are physical limits set on the acceleration that humans can withstand.

  • 9 years ago

    Steve is accelerated, so Steve's time dilates and slows down relative to his wife. His wife has approximately 8 years pass during Steve's trip to get coffee beans.

  • 9 years ago

    Nah man, nah

    This man may have thought that his useless trip was quick but around him time continues.

    Hence twin paradox.

    I did not crunch the numbers but his breakfast may have been over or his permiscuous wife has remarried

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