Christians, how would you respond to the JW claim that Trinitarians believe God and Jesus are the same?

Your question is not asking for evidence as to whether the Trinity doctrine is correct or not. You want to know how Christians would respond to JWs if the JWs are misrepresenting that doctrine.

First, they ARE misrepresenting it as shown over and over again in their official booklet, "Should You Believe In The Trinity?" published in 1989. The subheading of this booklet gives the show away, right at the start: "Is Jesus Christ the Almighty God?" You see the straw man question upon which the entire booklet is based? JWs think that the Trinity doctrine teaches that Jesus Christ is the Almighty God. But it does not!

Trinitarians will agree with JWs that Jesus Christ is NOT Almighty God because the Almighty cannot be confined, contained, or restricted to the human form of the Son of God - Jesus Christ. Trinitarians agree with JWs that the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Son, and so on. But JWs have been misled by having Oneness Pentecostal and Jesus Only doctrine presented to them as if those heretical takes on the doctrine were the Christian teaching! They also have warped arguments about Roman Catholics calling Mary "Mother of God" presented in that booklet, as if that was part of Trinitarian teaching. It isn't. They have partial (and un-sourced) quotes from some of the early Church Fathers presented in the booklet, as if those worthies did not believe Jesus was to be worshipped as God. But they can be fully quoted, in contex, with sources cited, to prove that they DID believe trinitarian views and thus they cannot be used to bolster these modern-day Arians - JWs.

Now, if I had the chance, I'd point JWs to an excellent refutation of their misleading Trinity booklet, done by Angel Arellano Jr. "Exposing Should You Believe in the Trinity" - PO Box 4567 West Covina CA 91791. Of course, they would refuse to read it, so I would work from my own copy.

I would also show JWs how they are in agreement with Trinitarians on one of the main points of the doctrine; that there is only one Being, who - alone - is God, who - alone - is worshipped by Christians. It is the second point of the doctrine that we take issue with - that this one Being subsists in the three persons of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They don't understand the difference between "Being" and "Person" (and the difficulty of now knowing how the Latin word for 'person' differs from the English meaning.) And that leads us to another critical point about the Holy Spirit.

Because JWs dismiss the Holy Spirit as being an inanimate object - like electricity, or air - they de-bar themselves from His enlightening effect. Jesus said he would be sent to guide believers into all truth, but 99.9% of all JWs happily agree that they are not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, not born again by the Spirit, without his guarantee that they will be united to Christ in glory. Now, how is it that a few million people alienated from God's Holy Spirit illumination can declare THEY know that Jesus is not God? How is it that they agree with Mulsims and Mormons as to the supposed created status of Jesus (not to mention spiritist Johannes Greber who rendered John 1:1 as do the JWs)?

You have had examples here of answers from Christadelphians (who agree almost entirely with JWs), Oneness Pentecostals, Jesus Only people and suchlike substantiating the fact that they are all modern-day heretics on this critical doctrine. Anyone doubting that claim just needs to read the book below to see how we have modern-day variations on ancient heresies like Modalism and Arianism. That is why the Trinity doctrine had to be thrashed out and very carefully worded, so that the unbiblical views of the first 300 years could not creep into the Church.

Finally, I would just tell JWs that if Jesus is not God with a capital 'g', then they are committing polytheism by calling him 'a god' (in their NWT of John 1:1). Yet verse 3 shows Jesus to be the Creator! He created everything that was made, proving he could not be made himself! That's why to worship Christ is to worship the one Creator; not a second Creator as their doctrines state. It's only the Trinity doctrine that excludes polytheism from the fact of Jesus being God. Until JWs see that, they will continue to misrepresent the person of Christ, and fail to grasp who it was who died for their sins on Calvary. Only God, in Christ, could suffice to atone for the sin of the whole world!

The truth is, not everyone who believes in the Trinity believes the same things. This is what Jehovah's witnesses believe: about the relationship between Jehovah and Jesus:

Definition: The central doctrine of religions of Christendom. According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three “Persons” are not separate and distinct individuals but are three modes in which the divine essence exists. Thus some Trinitarians emphasize their belief that Jesus Christ is God, or that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are Jehovah. Not a Bible teaching.

What is the origin of the Trinity doctrine?

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

Scriptures and other historical references are here:

No we are not wrong in what the Trinity is the Trinity is and always has been a three in one god, the clergy has modified it so it is easier to understand, what is called Trinity is not the Trinity because it was so hard to explain they now say there are three different persons but all equal. The three together make up God, no matter weather you stay with the real Trinity a three in one god or you say there are three that are equal you go against what the Bible teaches and you base it on scriptures that have been misquoted and scriptures that have been shown to be spurious writings.

There are at least 100 scriptures for every one you use to prove the Trinity that disprove it and the one you used is even argued against by scholars as to there meaning. The scriptures used to disprove the Trinity don't deed anyone's interpretation.

Just because the false clergy has change what the Trinity really is to explain it better doesn't make it any different it is a false teaching as Jesus is Jehovah's only begotten Son the firstborn of "all" creation and Jehovah is the one and only true God just as Eph 4:5-6 states, one(1) Lord and one(1) (Ephesians 4:6: One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all. )

Don't try to tell me that Jesus is equal with Jehovah as Jesus said his Father is greater than he and never in scripture is the three said to be one God nor has it been implied that the Holy Spirit is equal the Holy Spirit is always doing something or showing itself as fire, wind, animals/birds or breath. Jesus said that the helper(Holy Spirit) would be sent and be with his followers until the end so where is it now?

The Trinity is a false teaching period and it comes from man not the scriptures(2 Tim 4:3-4)!

Finally, I would just tell JWs that if Jesus is not God with a capital 'g', then they are committing polytheism by calling him 'a god' (in their NWT of John 1:1). Yet verse 3 shows Jesus to be the Creator! He created everything that was made, proving he could not be made himself! That's why to worship Christ is to worship the one Creator; not a second Creator as their doctrines state. It's only the Trinity doctrine that excludes polytheism from the fact of Jesus being God. Until JWs see that, they will continue to misrepresent the person of Christ, and fail to grasp who it was who died for their sins on Calvary. Only God, in Christ, could suffice to atone for the sin of the whole world!

First, they ARE misrepresenting it as shown over and over again in their official booklet, "Should You Believe In The Trinity?" published in 1989. The subheading of this booklet gives the show away, right at the start: "Is Jesus Christ the Almighty God?" You see the straw man question upon which the entire booklet is based? JWs think that the Trinity doctrine teaches that Jesus Christ is the Almighty God. But it does not!

The explanation of the Trinity is so simple that most people miss it.

If God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were the same, they would not have different names.

If they were the same, they would not appear separately as they do in Matthew 3:16,17.

In spite of being different, they are “one.” (John 10:30)

So we understand that the three “members” of the Trinity are different, but they are all God.

In Luke 22:70 and John 8:58, Jesus answers questions put to him by the Pharisees that declare Himself to be on “God’s level.” Notice how Jesus answered their questions by saying “I Am.” "I Am" is not a translation of YHWH, but it is similar to our translating YHWH into “I AM” in English. This choice of words was not lost on the Jewish audience He was talking to! They immediately wanted to kill Jesus for blasphemy. That is, the Jews believed that by comparing Himself to God in that way, that Jesus deserved death. They clearly understood the implication Jesus was making—that He was the same as God.

Cheers,

Bruce

Ok I was a southern baptist/christian for 40 years. The trinity was never taught to me, but I don't believe it either. This is why, Jesus was a Jew, they worshiped ONE God YHWH/Jehovah. When Jesus preached, taught, and witnessed, he spoke of his "Father" Jehovah. When he prayed it was to his Father, when he was hung upon the crux (google it) he asked his "father" to forgive those who had done those things to him. I don't believe the bible is a mystery that we can't comprehend. It is quite clear about things, so to say it's a mystery is a cop out to me. They are 2 separate beings, and the holy spirit is just Gods active force, something he gives freely when asked.

Three in one- saying they are 3 i in one is just another way to try and push this man made doctrine. You have a ball team, coach, assistant coach, and manager. They all want to win the game and work together for that purpose, it does not make them one being. I have looked at ***Bruce's*** link and I can believe what he is saying more so than what most say. Most want to call Jesus God but he is not God, he works with God and the holy spirit to save man, but I will not use the word trinity, that is what man calls it. Neither God nor Jesus uses that word so why is it so important?

Jesus spoke in ways so the people could understand through out the NT, so why would he make this one thing a mystery/ puzzle. He would not, if he wanted it to be known he was the Almighty God he would have just come out and said it, but he did not. His disciples/apostles did not teach this either, only after they all had died and the church became corrupted did this trinity start. The church was starting to teach falsely or twisting scriptures even before Jesus and his disciples had died, and was admonished for it by Jesus

(Matthew 15:1-6) Then there came to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying: 2 “Why is it your disciples overstep the tradition of the men of former times? For example, they do not wash their hands when about to eat a meal.” 3 In reply he said to them: “Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition? 4 For example, God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.’ 5 But YOU say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother: “Whatever I have by which you might get benefit from me is a gift dedicated to God,” 6 he must not honor his father at all.’ And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition.

I have been a JW for two years, but had never believe the trinity anyway. If I can't read it in the Holy Book I don't believe it. I believe all religion is corrupted and only believe what God and Jesus show me through the Holy Spirit and Bible. I have always believed they were 3 separate working together for one purpose, that is what I got out of bruces link.

***Bruce***

TY for the link.

There are many versions of the trinity. Modalism certainly teaches that Jesus is God the Father, Son, and holy spirit.

It is quite common to hear Christians say Jesus is Jehovah God.

Although many Catholics follow the Athanasian Creed, when asked who is God? Catholics only think of Jesus. This is likely due to the emphasis their clergy place on Jesus.

The trinitarian God (Father, Son, and holy spirit) it seems has been replaced with Jesus only.

Six (6) Frequently Asked or Misunderstood Teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses

http://www.counterfeitchristians.info/Questionsand...

Grey Tower, this is an interesting question. And as one of Jehovah's Witnesses I have always found the trinity doctrine to be confusing.

And now I see why, which is what I've always believed.

Someone just wrote "Now there are many different trinitarians with different views on the trinity."

That is where the problem lies! I don't think the problem is with JW's "misrepresentation of how the Churches describe the relationship between Jesus and his heavenly Father." The problem lies with trinitarians who have different views, and who are not in UNITY regarding their belief.

Maybe there is a need for a new Council of Nicea to again figure out the "central doctrine of christianity"? Call me dumb, but what I gather from this convoluted discussion is that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are all the same. After all, it is a mystery, right?

Paisley moon

Jesus and God are the Trinity. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost. Notice in the new testament Jesus always spoke about God as the one who sent him and the one who is "greater than me". Thats Why there is the Father- God, and then There is the Son - Jesus Christ. When God sent Jesus, it was a covenant he was making with us saying that I wanna give my children I created another chance. So God sent his beloved only son. John 3:16. For GOD so loved the world that he gave his only begotten SON (JESUS), so that whomever believes in him should not perish!

The teaching that God and Jesus are the same is true and accurate representation of trinitarian belief.

Where do you get the idea that The Father and Son are the same? That is NOT accurate.

What you quoted as Jehovah's Witnesses views that God and Jesus were the same this is true and biblical, you have not mentioned that Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Father and Son are the same, that is a gross oversimplification of trinitarian doctrine, are you accurately representing Jehovah's Witnesses misrepresentation of the trinity or your own misunderstanding of Jehovah's Witnesses argument against trinity. If Jehovah's Witnesses set out with the assumption that trinitarians believe the Father and Son are the same and set out to biblically disprove that, then this is a classic example of a straw man argument.

The trinitarian doctrine asserts, "There exists within the godhead three persons..."

Now there are many different trinitarians with different views on the trinity.

Traditional view: Statement of faith - can't be understood only believed. It accurately represents everything the bible says about God but is impossible to understand.

The Father is God

The Son is God

The Holy Spirit is God

The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit

The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

There is only one God.

One of the church fathers - can't remember which one said, anyone who doesn't accept the doctrine of the trinity is in danger of losing their soul, anyone who tries to understand the doctrine of the trinity is in danger of losing their mind.

Two branches have diverged from this traditional statement of faith.

Excuse me for forgetting what they're called, I'm very tired and my brain is foggy as I need to sleep, if I don't remember after a good night's sleep I'll try to look it up if I remember to come back to the question.

The "parts" interpretation.

The Father Son and Holy Spirit are three persons that form distinct components within the one triune Godhead. So trinity isn't 1+1+1=1 but 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1. The classic example used to explain trinity is the egg composed of shell, white and yolk, or a human comprised of body, mind, spirit.

The "manifestations" interpretation.

The Father Son and Holy Spirit are three words used to describe the way the one God interacts with humans. The Father is how Jesus described his eternal unworldly unapproachable nature, but this same one God can fold his personality into human form and appear to us as a human and live as a human thus becoming the Son (but the Son is a distinct manifestation of the Father incarnated to be approachable and comprehensible to us), even closer to us still in the third manifestation which is the personal Holy Spirit, when God enters our hearts and becomes one with our own spirits. An earthly explanation is that H2O can exist as Ice, Water and Steam. Of course, since God is outside of time and space the laws of causality don't apply and therefore God can take on all three forms at the same time.

However to specifically answer your question, the trinity doctrine is extremely complicated but it was hammered out over 300 or so years specifically to deal with the confusing and often contradictory statements in the bible about the nature of the relationship between Jesus and his Father. Mainly that the divinity of Christ has to be reconciled with the inflexible monotheism within Christianity.