Jehovah's Witnesses, Am I getting this right?

Responder quotes “Scriptural evidence indicates that the name Michael applied to God’s Son before he left heaven to become Jesus Christ and also after his return. Michael is the only one said to be “the archangel,” meaning “chief angel,” or “principal angel.” The term occurs in the Bible only in the singular”.

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Incorrect:

“Michael”, please provide the Scriptural evidence you are referring to. Incredible. There is no Scriptural evidence whatsoever indicating such nonsense. The responder makes a very weak argument. Read John 1:1-3, Col. 1:15-17 with open eyes and open heart.

Jehovah's Witnesses state, "Well, the prefix "arch," meaning "chief" or "principal," implies that there is only one archangel."

There is obviously fallacious reasoning on the part of the JWs; the etymology does not determine the meaning of a word, USAGE does. And the claim made in their articles is incorrect on its face....the prefix arkh- does not imply a unique referent. It frequently designates an office or class that is ranked over others. For instance, arkhiereis "chief priests" in Matthew 2:4, 20:18, 21:15 is in the plural and definitely does not imply that there was only one "chief priest".

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Responder quotes: “The very name Michael, asking as it does, “Who Is Like God?” points to the fact that Jehovah God is without like, or equal, and that Michael his archangel is his great Champion or Vindicator”.

Carefully read John 1:1-3 which strongly implies that the Word has all the qualities and attributes of God (qualitative).The responder makes an unsound argument which has no ties whatsoever to Michael being Jesus. The etymology of a name does not determine the character of the person who bears that name. Furthermore, Jesus is never called "Chief Prince" in the Bible. It is not one of His titles. He is called, however "King of Kings" and Lord of Lords." [Rev. 19:16]

Jesus does have angelic forces with him when He fights [see Mat. 25:31], but He is never referred to as the "Prince" of these forces, rather He is identified as "the King" [Matt. 25:34]

Jesus is never called a "great prince" in the Bible, nor a guardian.

Michael did not have the power to rebuke Satan, Jesus rebuked Satan many times. [see Matt.17:18, Mark 9:25, etc.] Therefore Jesus is not Michael.

Michael referred to "the Lord" as separate from himself. "The Lord" is a New Testament reference to Jesus, and an Old Testament reference to YHWH.

Revelation 12:5, 6 just previous to this scripture portrays Christ as a "male", a "son". Verse 10 following calls Him "Christ". Jesus is not called an angel in the book of Revelation.

Another point the responder is making is that Jesus, after the resurrection, was in a new “body” (spirit). This JW theory goes against those who believe in a bodily resurrection. According to this view, Jesus’ resurrection does not disqualify him from being a spirit creature like the angels.

Objection:

Jn.2:19-21 “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again in three days “…”But he was speaking of the temple of his body.” He was speaking of the temple, His body (soma - Greek - body not spirit not soul – body) did Jesus lie or misrepresent what he would do. Not only does he say the same body will be raised up But that he will do this. How does one accomplish this fact if they are out of existence. Remember according to the WT “he was unconscious, out of existence. Death did not mean a transition to another life for Jesus; rather non existence.”

Acts 2:24-28 “Whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death”. What dies the body nowhere do we find a spirit being resurrected in the scriptures. Peter sums up his sermon in vs.31 “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades nor his flesh see corruption.” Christ went as a living soul to paradise not only that he states he did not see corruption in his body or soul. this means his body was not left to rot in the ground but was brought out as the firstfruits unto eternal life . Neither was his soul annihilated as the Watchtower teaches.

Acts 17:31 and 1 Timothy 2:5 both state that the risen Christ is "a man." Peter cited as proof that the Messiah would rise from the dead in David's prophetic statement, "even my _flesh_ will reside in hope" (Acts 2:26, cf. 2:29-31) -- which could not be true of Jesus unless His flesh rose from the dead.

JW’s, how could Christ be the angel Michael when in Hebrews we read that He was lower than angels?

Hebrews 2:7 You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him, and appointed him over the works of your hands. 8 All things you subjected under his feet.” For in that he subjected all things to him [God] left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him; 9 but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].

You claim that Michael is the only chief angel or Archangel in charge of millions of God’s angels, how could the highest ranking angel be lower than every angel?

Even in Daniel we can read that Michael was only ((ONE)) of the chief princes. Yet God calls Christ, “His Only Begotten Son” how could God’s ((Only)) Begotten Son be one of a group of unnumbered Chief Princes?

If Christ coming with the voice of an Archangel and the trumpet of God makes Him Michael, it would also make Him God under the same logic as He also comes with the trumpet of God.

Why did Christ [AKA Michael] not dare not bring a judgment of blasphemy, on Satan but said, “Let the Lord rebuke you!” What would stop Christ from doing this?

Is there any verse in the NWT that says directly that Christ actually Michael?

If you have the " Truth"... what are you worried about, why care what the witnesses say? This behavior was on display in the 1st century and it still is now..

The Scribes and Pharisees who thought they had the " truth" were CONSTANTLY following Jesus and looking for fault with his teachings.

Remember this account?

* (Mark 3:1-6) Once again he entered into a synagogue, and a man was there with a dried-up hand. 2 So they were watching him closely to see whether he would cure the man on the sabbath, in order that they might accuse him. 3 And he said to the man with the withered hand: “Get up [and come] to the center.” 4 Next he said to them: “Is it lawful on the sabbath to do a good deed or to do a bad deed, to save or to kill a soul?” But they kept silent. 5 And after looking around upon them with indignation, being thoroughly grieved at the insensibility of their hearts, he said to the man: “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 AT THAT THE PHARISEES WENT OUT AND IMMEDIATELY BEGIN HOLDING COUNCIL WITH THE PARTY FOLLOWERS OF HEROD AGAINST HIM, IN ORDER TO DESTROY HIM. 

* Same thinking here.

I understand that you have two objections: One that Jesus is also called Michael, and the other that Jesus was raised in a spirit body. Your basis for not believing these things is Luke 24:38-39, and John 2:18-22

About the first objection, that Jesus is also called Michael can be established by two scriptures:

where he is said to have an archangel's voice - and there is only ONE archangel in the Bible. (1 Thessalonians 4:16), and where Michael is said to command the angels (Revelation 12:7) which only Jesus has been given the power by God to do. Many have been given other names when given different capacities or assignments - Simon was called Peter (a rock). So for Jesus (Yeshua, meaning Salvation of Jehovah) being called Michael (meaning Who is like God?) when he is executing judgement on behalf of Jehovah, is not a novel thing in the scriptures.

Archangel simply means chief of the angels, and Jesus is certainly that. In his role as savior of mankind through his death, and in his role as head of the Christian congregation, he is Jesus. In his role as commander of the angels and executioner of wicked forces, he is Michael.

The scriptures clearly reveal the state in which Jesus was (I Peter 3:18-20) He died once for all time, according to this and other scriptures, like Hebrews 9:12. He had to be in the spirit ("by which", KJV) in order to preach to the disobedient angels. Because he will not lay down a physical body again in death, his resurrection had to mean that the body that he had would be no more. When he appeared to his disciples, they couldn't recognize this Jesus who they knew and loved for almost 3 years (Luke 24:31) Mary thought he was the gardener (John 20:14-16). He was able to go through locked doors (John 20:19), which isn't a major feat for Jesus, since he could walk on water while in the flesh, but the fact that it was mentioned shows that he could do things at that time that a spirit can do. When Jesus went into heaven, he was a spirit, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom, and he was the first to do so (1 Corinthians 15:45, John 3:13)There are other scriptures, but these should suffice to show that when Jesus was resurrected, he was not appearing in the fleshly body that he had before.

In John chapter two, what Jesus was referring to when he spoke of raising "the temple of his body"

is also not taking back his fleshly body. Later the scriptures spoke of the congregation of spirit anointed persons, of which Jesus is head- “the temple of his body” consists of many living stones, with Jesus as the foundation cornerstone:

(1 Pet. 2:4-7) “You yourselves also as living stones are being built up a spiritual house for the purpose of a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”

Jehovah God raised him up to become the chief cornerstone of the temple of living stones then under preparation. He immediately appeared to his disciples and lifted them up out of their despondency, built them up spiritually so that they could “offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God”.

(1 Corinthians 15:20) However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death].

(Acts 5:15) " ..whereas YOU killed the Chief Agent of life. But God raised him up from the dead, of which fact we are witnesses."

I know that this does not convince someone who believes that to call Jesus Michael is somehow wrong, and that to say that Jesus did not take on his previous fleshly body is wrong. But these scriptures should at least show that this viewpoint has scriptural backing, and that we should view Jesus as the person that he is and not what we want him to be. Jesus' Father is his God, on earth and in heaven, and he does what his Father says to do at all times. (Revelation 3:12)

I agree with Suzy... Unless you knock down the brick wall you have against us for whatever reason, and open your heart, then no matter what we say, we will be always wrong! Even when we show you proof that the trinity is not a bible teaching, and proof that we have not published you still would rather believe in the trinity teaching.

It's not about what sounds good, it's about what is right in it's teaching. Have you studied with us before? If not, just give it a go, you never know!

The only holy angel other than Gabriel named in the Bible, and the only one called “archangel.” (Jude 9) The first occurrence of the name is in the tenth chapter of Daniel, where Michael is described as “one of the foremost princes”; he came to the aid of a lesser angel who was opposed by “the prince of the royal realm of Persia.” Michael was called “the prince of [Daniel’s] people,” “the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people.” (Da 10:13, 20, 21; 12:1) This points to Michael as the angel who led the Israelites through the wilderness. (Ex 23:20, 21, 23; 32:34; 33:2) Lending support to this conclusion is the fact that “Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body.”—Jude 9.

Scriptural evidence indicates that the name Michael applied to God’s Son before he left heaven to become Jesus Christ and also after his return. Michael is the only one said to be “the archangel,” meaning “chief angel,” or “principal angel.” The term occurs in the Bible only in the singular.

In his prehuman existence Jesus was called “the Word.” (Joh 1:1) He also had the personal name Michael. By retaining the name Jesus after his resurrection (Ac 9:5), “the Word” shows that he is identical with the Son of God on earth. His resuming his heavenly name Michael and his title (or name) “The Word of God” (Re 19:13) ties him in with his prehuman existence. The very name Michael, asking as it does, “Who Is Like God?” points to the fact that Jehovah God is without like, or equal, and that Michael his archangel is his great Champion or Vindicator.

When the Jews demanded a sign from Jesus, he replied: “Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews thought he was speaking of the temple building, but the apostle John explains: “He was talking about the temple of his body.” When he was resurrected by his Father Jehovah on the third day of his death, the disciples recalled and understood this saying and believed it. (Joh 2:18-22; Mt 27:40) He was resurrected, but not in his fleshly body, which was given as a ransom sacrifice; yet that fleshly body did not go into corruption, but was disposed of by God, just as a sacrifice was consumed on the altar. Jesus, when resurrected, was the same person, the same personality, in a new body made for his new dwelling place, the spiritual heavens.—Lu 24:1-7; 1Pe 3:18; Mt 20:28; Ac 2:31; Heb 13:8.

Humans cannot see spirits, so the disciples evidently thought they were seeing an apparition or a vision. (Compare Mark 6:49, 50.) Jesus assured them that he was no apparition; they could see his body of flesh and could touch him, feeling the bones; he also ate in their presence. Similarly, in the past, angels had materialized in order to be seen by men; they had eaten, and some had even married and fathered children. (Gen. 6:4; 19:1-3) Following his resurrection, Jesus did not always appear in the same body of flesh (perhaps to reinforce in their minds the fact that he was then a spirit), and so he was not immediately recognized even by his close associates. (John 20:14, 15; 21:4-7) However, by his repeatedly appearing to them in materialized bodies and then saying and doing things that they would identify with the Jesus they knew, he strengthened their faith in the fact that he truly had been resurrected from the dead.

If the disciples had actually seen Jesus in the body that he now has in heaven, Paul would not later have referred to the glorified Christ as being “the exact representation of [God’s] very being,” because God is a Spirit and has never been in the flesh.—Heb. 1:3; compare 1 Timothy 6:16.

No you are incorrect.

Jesus wasn't an archangel when he was created. Archangel means head or leader of the angels. Since there were no angels in existence when Jesus was created he could not by definition be an archangel. This would be like refering to someone as a husband before he is married.

We don't know how many countless milleniums Father and Son were together before the angels were created. I have no idea what Jesus (the Son) was called at the time.

Big Guy 320, from your questions in the past, it is my understanding that no matter what any of my fellow brothers and sisters post, you will still not believe it. You do realize that in the OT the name of Jesus is never spoken of. He is always refered to as Michael.

(Jude 9) But when Mi′cha·el the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: “May Jehovah rebuke you.”

(I know this is Jude and in the NT. The time of this happening was in the OT as it's Moses after all.)

(1 Thessalonians 4:16) because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

While there is no statement in the Bible that categorically identifies Michael the archangel as Jesus, there is one scripture that links Jesus with the office of archangel. In his letter to the Thessalonians, the apostle Paul prophesied: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16) In this scripture Jesus is described as having assumed his power as God’s Messianic King. Yet, he speaks with “an archangel’s voice.” Note, too, that he has the power to raise the dead.

While on earth as a human, Jesus performed several resurrections. In doing so, he used his voice to utter commanding calls. For example, when resurrecting the dead son of a widow in the city of Nain, he said: “Young man, I say to you, Get up!” (Luke 7:14, 15) Later, just before resurrecting his friend Lazarus, Jesus “cried out with a loud voice: ‘Lazarus, come on out!’” (John 11:43) But on these occasions, Jesus’ voice was the voice of a perfect man.

After his own resurrection, Jesus was raised to a “superior position” in heaven as a spirit creature. (Philippians 2:9) No longer a human, he has the voice of an archangel. So when God’s trumpet sounded the call for “those who are dead in union with Christ” to be raised to heaven, Jesus issued “a commanding call,” this time “with an archangel’s voice.” It is reasonable to conclude that only an archangel would call “with an archangel’s voice.”

Hi - You are almost 100% correct. Jesus was the first thing that God created and he, at God's direction created everything else. His name in heaven is Michael. He is the first, prime or arch angel.

God changed him from a spirit to a human cell and placed him in the womb of Mary. He was then born as a human but without original sin.

His name on earth was Jesus which is actually a title. Christ is also a title.

When he arose from the dead it was in physical form, just as we will rise. He remained in physical form until it was time for him to return to heaven. He was then transformed once more from physical to spirit. His physical body simply vanished or ceased to exist.

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