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Anonymous
Anonymous asked in Society & CultureReligion & Spirituality · 6 years ago

Why do certain theists deflect questions regarding the historical accuracy of Jesus by questioning the existence of other historical figures?

Update:

Like Socrates

1) Whether Socrates, in this example, existed or not has no bearing on whether Jesus existed.

2) There were no claims that Socrates was the son of a god so the existence of a philosopher doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

3) Nobody has suggested that failing to believe in Socrates will subject the nonbeliever to eternal damnation.

It is too much to ask for these certain these theists to play on an even playing field?

Update 2:

@ Simple Jack

Certain scholars, particularly in Europe, have recently made the case that while there are a number of plausible "Jesuses" that could have existed, there can be no certainty as to which Jesus was the historical Jesus, and that there should also be more scholarly research and debate on this topic

Update 3:

The only sources are documentary; in conjunction with Biblical texts such as the Pauline epistles and the synoptic Gospels, three passages in non-Christian works have been used to support the historicity of Jesus: two in the writings of the Jewish historian Josephus, and one from the Roman historian Tacitus. Although the authenticity of all three has been questioned, and one is generally accepted as having been altered by Christians.

Update 4:

There is no contemporary historical record of any kind of Jesus. No written Roman, Greek or Jewish sources from this time (apart from the gospels) know of any historical Jesus or Christ. The name "Christ" is mentioned in some later texts (Tacitus, Suetonius Pliny d.y.) but then merely as the name of the idol of the Christians' worship.

Update 5:

We don't even know who the writers of the Gospels were, and don't have the original manuscripts themselves either. We just have later copies of copies of copies of copies … of copies of the assumed lost originals. And with each copy the copyist usually felt free to alter details or rewrite whole parts of the manuscript.

(We usually don't trust dubious anonymous sources as evidence for anything, do we?)

Update 6:

The "evidence" that many are willing to consider for Jesus wouldn't begin to pass muster for any other supposedly historical figure, a fact that is becoming apparent to a growing body of nonreligious academics.

Update 7:

@ Simple Jack yes I am absolutely shocked that biblical scholars would reach a consensus that a biblical Jesus existed. Not like they would be biased or anything.

Update 8:

Read it again Jack,

There is "near universal consensus" among scholars that Jesus existed historically,[3][4][5][nb 1][nb 2][nb 3][nb 4] although biblical scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the details of his life that have been described in the Gospels.[

Update 9:

Not to mention that most people realize wikipedia isn't exactly the most reliable source out there.

Update 10:

Show me where it says historian like you said.

Or perhaps you are the liar?

Update 11:

Show me where it says "historian" in that context Jack. Because it doesn't and you have the nerve to call others liars.

Update 12:

As you can see Jack has been exposed as the liar and now runs away. There is no point in the article that "states the historicity of Jesus is accepted by "HISTORIANS".

Simple Jack the dishonest Christian.

Update 13:

"Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[1][3][4][5][6][7]".

Update 14:

That's a lot of citations, right? Surely some of them might be true, right? Well, actually, the first one is Bart Ehrman. Ehrman is a biblical scholar

Update 15:

The second citation is by Michael Grant, and quite honestly his book on the matter was mediocre and well summarized by that reviewer. Number three (Sorry, [4]) is Richard, a priest at a religious university with a Ph.D from the same. [5] is Robert, a religious scholar and publisher of religious works himself. James and Graham are also religious professors in religious universities who devote themselves rather religiously to religion.

Update 16:

Not only is this an inexcusable attempt to appeal to popularity or authority of an argument, but its conclusion is also incorrec

Update 17:

Simple Jack - are you seriously denying Ehrman is a biblical scholar? Seriously all you do is lie. He began studying the Bible and its original languages at Moody Bible Institute, where he earned the school's three-year diploma in 1976.[2] He is a 1978 graduate of Wheaton College in Illinois, where he received his bachelor's degree.

Update 18:

Simple Jack - I still have yet to see you post one "historian" but I see a lot of biblical scholars. Keep lying son.

Update 19:

One again Jack proved what an ignoramus he is by not recognizing that Ehrman is only an agnostic by his own admission due to the problem of good and evil and was very much a Christian for most of his life. Also that is one person who isn't even a historian. All you have is one person that claims to be agnostic out of the 7 citations used to support your statement. All the others are quite religious.

Keep selling it Jack but nobody is buying it.

11 Answers

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  • Anonymous
    6 years ago
    Favorite Answer

    There is no historical accuracy of Jesus. The alleged consensus comes from Biblical scholars who are theists. That's like believing a tobacco manufacturer who told you smoking cigarettes was good for your health. There is no true historical evidence for the existence of the bibilical Jesus. There is no evidence for the existence of Socrates. That does not invalidate the philosphy ascribed to Socrates. The theists seem to be in fear of admitting that belief in the Christ needs only be that. The seven verified Pauline epistles all talk about a Jesus of revelation. Not once do they make any reference to a real person. It is surprising that the theists need to place all their bets on the character in the fiction of the gospels and do not have a Pauline beleif.

  • 4 years ago

    Historical Accuracy Of Jesus

  • John S
    Lv 7
    6 years ago

    No offense, but I think you are missing the point, then. I might I simply suggest that the fact that you have been told this, but can't come up with an actual example.. is perhaps evidence, that you didn't actually take enough time to read and understand the points they were attempting to make? Perhaps you were too busy seeing it as an "us verses them" partisan type situation and brushed off their answer.

    The point they are attempting to make, is to show that we accept certain Historical persons with FAR less evidence. THEREFORE, it would be inconsistent to apply 2 different sets of criteria to decide the Historicity of an individual.

    Many non-Theists like to quote Carl Sagan's famous quote: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - and often times our emotions tell us the same.

    HOWEVER, academia doesn't apply different criteria depending upon the claim. - What I mean is that Historians or Scientists don't require EXTRA evidence to accept something, simply because it seem extraordinary. Regular, old, standard evidence is all that is required.

    So this idea or emotional response that SIMPLY because Jesus is a religious figure OR that he claimed to be God - somehow requires EXTRA evidence, beyond what is required to establish that normal existence -- is a FALSE idea.

    In other words, it is emotional, not rational.

    When it comes to Philosophy or "Logic" -- things are EITHER true or not true. The amount of evidence remains the same, regardless of who is making the claim, or what the claim is.

    Make sense?

    So if you accept that a certain battle took place or a certain person existed -- and we only have 1 account of it. Then you SHOULD accept that Jesus existed, because we have multiple accounts.

    So if you accept that a certain event occurred in history, even though the only record is from 100 yrs. later - then you SHOULD accept that Jesus existed, even if some of the accounts were recorded 30 or 60yrs. later.

    THAT is their point.

    Make sense?

  • Fuzzy
    Lv 7
    6 years ago

    It seems that when considering the testimony of both enemies of Christians and friends of the past, plus the fact that for nearly two thousand years people have rather than denying their faith in Christ chosen death at the hands of those persecuting Christians - that those who deny the person's existence must be lacking normal reasoning powers.

    If in a court of law, that many people witnesses to e.g. that the person being prosecuted was so and so, that the court would have to accept it being so and so.

    Again, we see how a great many atheists who jump on this bandwagon simply follow the example of the three monkeys.

    We have the writings of early Christians; there is even testimony from their most bitter enemies at the time, the Jews, who complained that the Christian writings were hard to destroy because these contained the holy name of God - thus, indirectly bearing witness to the existence of this very early church's activity in Israel at such extremely early times.

    And, all that atheists has to assert is that all these witnesses for and against Christians at the time - cannot be believed. Total lunacy.

    While you may not accept the powers attributed the man Jesus, your rejection of his very existence - is just not kosher, and it is stupid.

    Source(s): http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14247-t... "R. Ṭarfon was extremely bitter against those Jews who had been converted to the new faith; and he swore that he would burn every book of theirs which should fall into his hands (Shab. 116a), his feeling being so intense that he had no scruples against destroying the Gospels, although the name of God occurred frequently in them." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14247-t... When he lived!
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  • 6 years ago

    I question the existence of all "historical" figures which don't have proper historical evidence to support them.

    That includes Jesus, King Arthur, Robin Hood and Heracles. There might have been historical prototypes but we don't know anything about them, only myths and legends told decades and centuries after their death (if existed).

  • ?
    Lv 7
    6 years ago

    Theists generally don't question the existence of other historical figures. What they often do is apply the same criteria misotheists try to apply when arguing against the existence of Jesus as a means of demonstrating the criteria is flawed. This is accomplished by showing were the same criteria applied equally to other historical figures of the same era most of those other historical figures would fail to fulfill that criteria.

  • G C
    Lv 7
    6 years ago

    Well, I don't know about others. All I know is that the evidence of Jesus is so overwhelming that it is no longer up for debate. It was only recently that people have questioned this because they are grasping at straws. There is no doubt, but people long to disbelieve in Jesus so they can live as they wish without guilt. Sadly, though, that will not change their future of standing before God and being judged for their actions.

  • ?
    Lv 7
    6 years ago

    It's not a deflection. Atheists typically accept the existence of historical figures with far, far less evidence than Jesus. So bringing up that fact is relevant to the question.

    And points 2 & 3 are irrelevant. Whether or not Jesus' teachings are true is a completely separate issue from whether or not He existed.

    And no matter how much you whine about it, the vast majority of historians accept that Jesus of Nazareth existed.

    "There is "near universal consensus" among scholars that Jesus existed historically"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

    You want an "even playing field", but then you refuse to give that to Jesus when talking about His historical existence.

    Update 2: Even if that were true, that STILL means Jesus existed. Even if they don't know which one, there was one that still existed.

    Update 3: "most scholars believe they are at least partially authentic" Interesting how you conveniently left that phrase off your quote. There you go again, denying that even playing field you claim you want.

    Updates 4-6: See, I actually gave the reference for what I said, and that wiki article has all the references for what is said there. Without references, all you're giving is baseless claims. Find me a reliable source that says most historians reject that Jesus actually existed. Until then, all it looks like is you're just whining and desperate because the experts disagree with your position.

    Update 7: And now you start lying. The article states the historicity of Jesus is accepted by "HISTORIANS". But you try to change it to just "Biblical scholars". Typical skeptic tactic - can't refute? just lie! Good job.

    You're the one who isn't reading. It only specifies "Biblical" scholars as who is debating the actual beliefs and teachings of Jesus, NOT as the ones who accept the historicity of Jesus. When it's about the actual historicity of Jesus, it's always just "scholars" and "historians" with NO "Biblical" qualifier.

    Update 11: "classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted" Have a nice day.

    More dishonesty. Ehrman is a secular agnostic. You're attempting to paint these people as Christians who are biased to prove Christ. The fact that Ehrman is a secular agnostic proves you are being nonsensical and dishonest. You just CAN'T provide an HONEST position here, can you.

    Wow, you're just utterly full of crap. You claimed, "I am absolutely shocked that biblical scholars would reach a consensus that a biblical Jesus existed. Not like they would be biased or anything." - That is a CLEAR accusation that the scholars are all Christians who need to validate their faith. Ehrman is a secular agnostic. Your blatant attempt to lie about who these scholars are makes it clear you have no interest in an honest discussion. Have a nice day.

  • 6 years ago

    Deflecting the question is a common tactic to avoid answering. Notice how frequently the good Christians Republican candidates do it. Fiorina and Bush are becoming quite adept at it.

    Additionally, there aren't a plethora of myths that Socrates was born out of, but I guess that is irrelevant.

  • 6 years ago

    Not a deflection, usually an honest comparison.

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