Jehovah's Witnesses you make the charge that the early church removed God's name from the New Testament, what is your proof?

Here are the claims made by the New World Translation committee:

“For centuries scholars thought that the Tetragrammaton was absent from manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament, as well as from manuscripts of the New Testament. Then in the mid-20th century, something remarkable came to the attention of scholars—some very old fragments of the Greek Septuagint version that existed in Jesus’ day had been discovered. Those fragments contain the personal name of God, written in Hebrew characters... When copies of the Septuagint were discovered that used the divine name rather than Kyʹri·os (Lord), it became evident to the translators that in Jesus’ day copies of the earlier Scriptures in Greek—and of course those in Hebrew—did contain the divine name. Apparently, the God-dishonoring tradition of removing the divine name from Greek manuscripts developed only later.”

“The divine name also appeared in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the “Old Testament” that was widely used in the first century C.E. So when the inspired writers of the “New Testament” quoted from the “Old Testament,” they must have seen the Tetragrammaton, whether they were quoting directly from the Hebrew text of the “Old Testament” or the Greek translation of that text, the Septuagint. The Greek manuscripts of the “New Testament” that would have a bearing on this issue are copies that were made from about 200 C.E. onward. The more complete manuscripts are from the fourth century C.E., long after the originals were composed. However, sometime during the second or early third century C.E., a practice had developed where those copying the manuscripts either replaced the Tetragrammaton with a title such as Lord or God or copied from manuscripts where this had already been done.”

To refute these claims, please go to the first link below (none of which is copyright protected), part of which says:

“The Divine Name (YHWH, the Tetragram) occurred nearly 7,000 times in the ancient Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament). In the New Testament, there were some quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures where the Divine Name had originally been used so the question arises as to whether the Christian writers of the Greek Scriptures would have written Jehovah. The translation committee for the Jehovah's Witness rendition of the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures wrote Jehovah 237 times, some of those times being quotations. However, in The United Bible Societies' Christian Greek Scripture textual apparatus (A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament which shows all textual variants in cited Greek manuscripts) a list of ALL major Christian Scripture manuscript variations from which translators must choose, shows that 71 of the 237 'Jehovah' references do not have the Tetragram. Of the remaining 166 references they date from 1385 C.E. onwards, and there is no basis for textual variants either. But 31 times there is reason to debate whether Kyrios [Lord] or Theos [God] should be used.”

There are NO manuscripts of antiquity where Christian scribes stopped writing Greek where they understood Kyrios [Greek for Lord] should be changed into the Hebrew Tetragram [YHWH]. Even where early Christians knew the original Hebrew quote had YHWH, they stuck to Kyrios in Greek. They never put the Tetragram in. That only happened from 1385 C.E. onward in some Hebrew translations. Yet ancient Greek texts from as early as 200 to 300 C.E. had Kyrios. These are the same Greek texts from which the Hebrew versions were translated.

The second link lists all the New Testament scriptures that quote from the Old Testament. There is no incidence of translating YHWH as anything other than Lord.

The “reasoning” of the NWT committee is fatally flawed to begin with because the scribes who wrote the earliest Greek manuscripts did not write the Hebrew YHWH when they were quoting from Old Testament passages that contained the Tetragrammaton. They wrote the Greek Kyrios, for Lord. By appealing to the Septuagint fragments, the NWT committee seek to deceive and they ignore the fact that ancient Greek texts from as early as 200 to 300 C.E. used Kyrios and not YHWH. There is no evidence to support their claim that “the God-dishonoring tradition of removing the divine name from Greek manuscripts developed only later.”

Wow I can't believe any JW stepped up to make their case for this one.

Perhaps they know that the four points they normally rely upon are weak and foolish!

1) Logic... We all have a name and so does God.. so shouldn't God's name be in the bible. Perhaps the most stupid of their arguments (but it's a close call) since they unknowingly are saying that shouldn't logic overrule evidence and bible instruction. You see Got tells us not to add or subtract to His word and if the only evidence we have for His word is ABC then ABC it is.. irrespective of logic

2) Some are clever and devious enough to quote the Tosefta.. "“The books of the Evangelists and the books of the minim [thought to be Jewish Christians] they do not save from a fire. But they are allowed to burn where they are, . . . they and the references to the Divine Name which are in them.” However, they have to acknowledge that the minim isn't necessarily Christians and can't explain why Jewish evangelist had anything to do with Christians. They hated them. Moreover, they won't tell you that the Tosefta is seriously question by in it's authenticity and scriptural instruction by Jewish scholars. Since it's allege the Tosefta was written by Jewish scholars why has it not been accepted by the Jews and why do JWs select one passage that they manipulate to say what they want and then reject the rest of the Tosefta?

3) Old Testament references. JWorg will point to the many quotes in the NT that directly quote the OT where YHWH is used. They argue that all the other bibles change the quote in the OT from YHWH to Lord. This seems like a valid claim except for a number of points they like to ignore. 1) JWs accept that the Jews didn't record the FULL name of God and say this is due to superstition. Personally I think its due to respect and has reason. What happened to the guy who put his hand out to stop the ark falling? Irrespective of the reason the Jews didn't record the FULL NAME of God and would never say the name. There are many places in the OT where YHWH could and maybe you can argue should have been used but other words are used like "Lord", "God", etc. I don't see JWs rushing to change these references and if they were consistent they would....The reality is that there is clear and abundant evidence that the Jews didn't use or record YHWH in BOTH the OT and NT and the fact that they used Lord in the NT to refer to a quote in the OT YHWH is further evidence of this. Again the principle JWs deploy is logic over evidence. Furthermore we do not know the FULL name of God no matter how many mental somersault JWs do. YHWH isn't a name in Hebrew, Greek, English or urdu!

4) The Septuagint. Perhaps this competes for the dumbest of JW arguments because in raising the Septuagint as evidence they actually prove the opposite to what they claim. The JW claim is that they have found pieces of the Septuagint (Greek versions of the OT) with YHWH in them. The claim is that Jews did use God's hebrew name in Greek versions of the OT and they therefore must have in the NT.... but that's not a logical step it's a full blown supersonic journey. All these Septuagint fragments show us is that SOME Jews used the Tetragrammaton in their OT Greek translations. Note the word "SOME" because in other Septuagint manuscripts the Tetragrammaton is substituted for Lord. This of course causes some JWs to flip this argument and focus on those with Lord to say that's evidence of the Jews leaving out God's name... and in a sense they are right. The problem is that this proves nothing. God knew before He gave the Jews His name that they would not write it, say it or use it. He knew this and made no attempt to make sure it didn't happen which begs the question why not? Even Jesus didn't rebuke the Jewish leaders for not using God's name and indeed again there's no evidence He ever used God's name Himself, no record of the FULL name of God and not one single NT manuscript with God's name on it - despite the fact we have 5,000 NT manuscripts or part of. This being absolutely true why can't JWs tells us why an all powerful God can't protect His word with His name in it? and if God can't protect His word then how can they be sure any of the bible is His word?

Frankly JWs are deluded. Unfortunately over the century or so of their existence they have steadfastly increased the complexity of their claims to make it difficult for those who are unprepared to counter their weak arguments. For those prepared to study and search truth though it becomes more and more astonishing the lengths that JWorg and JWs themselves will go to support their false beliefs!

They don't need proof: it's an article of faith, just as some Christians seem to think that you can divine the will of God by picking verses at random from the Old Testament (what's the Biblical justification for Biblical justfication?)

The Hebrew Bible contained a number of names for God including Yahweh (I exist) and Adonai (Master). Only God could say Yahweh - the Pharisees tried to stone Jesus for saying it - so when someone read aloud from scripture, they said Adonai. Ancient Hebrew writing had no symbols for vowels. These were added later as diacritic marks, but when the scribe came to the consonants for Yahweh, they added the vowel diacrits for Adonai.

For the first 1,500 years of Christianity, the Church relied upon the Greek version of the Old Testament. The Protestant Reformers decided that this was full of papist error and studied Hebrew texts. When they came across the hybrid of Yahweh and Adonai, they decided that the name of God must be Jehovah. Scholars soon pointed out the error of their ways, but too late for the Calvinists who settled in America and they used the word well into the nineteenth century. That inspired Charels Taze Russell to use the word within the Bible Student Movement which developed into the JWs.

Proof? There is absolutely none. There are no manuscripts in existence that have the divine name in the Greek scriptures. As most people believe, it was not in the NT ever and wasn't meant to be.

The divine name was being removed from the scriptures about 250 years before Christ came, partly out of superstition and partly to preserve the holiness of it.

Considering that God is in control of His word and inspires it, I think He purposely let them do that in preparation for Christ. There is purpose for why the NT says Jesus is the name above all names, and is the only name by which you can be saved. There is purpose for it saying that all people will bend their knees to Christ and acknowledge that He is the Lord. Knowing the proper pronunciation of YHWH is not necessary to salvation but knowing Jesus is.

Christian, not a JW

I use The name Jehovah on DEMONS and it works, LORD does not, even when i said Jesus, but when i said " I Know you, come out of him in the name of the Christ, the demon fled the human and the man stated to cry out"crazy love, crazy love" seems to me, the personal relationship with the creator as Jehovah works for me every time.

Jehovah is not God`s name anyway. The letter J was not in the English language (nor in the bible) until roughly 500 years ago. I am Christian but not a Jehovah`s witness.

In most Bibles, God's name has been removed and has been replaced with the titles LORD or GOD.

But when the Bible was written, the name Jehovah (in Hebrew : JHWH) appeared it some 7,000 times !

- Exodus 3:15; Psalm 83:18.

Whats their proof. Simple. They think it should be there and its not. How else can they prove a great Christendom conspiracy?

Uh Google king James or rather Queen James who had a thing for as he put it a nice hot boy in my bed! His mother used to scream James Jehovah dosent like what your doing!

One day king James got tired of mommy's nagging locked her in the tower(latter she died there). Then he proceeded to translate the bible strikeing all Jehovah's out of the bible but in one place.

Now just recently the writers of the king James made a big deal about restoring the divine name to its rightful place and wrote the divine name king James putting back the 5000 times James took it out!

Big deal Jehovah's witnesses did that years ago!

As I said Google king James the known gay king who did not like the divine name much

2)The Tetragrammaton in Hebrew version of the NT.

As many know, the first book of the NT, the gospel of Matthew was written in Hebrew. The proof of this is found in the work of Girolamo De viris inlustribus, chap. 3, where he writes:

"Matthew, that is also Levi, that became an apostle after having been a tax collector, was the first to write a Gospel of Christ in Judea in the Hebrew language and Hebrew characters, for the benefit of those who where circumcised that had believed. It's not know with enough certainly who had then translated it in Greek. However the Hebrew one it self is preserved till this day in the Library at Cesarea, that the martyr Pamphilus collected so accurately. The Nazarenes of the Syrian city of Berea that use this copy have also allowed me to copy it". From the Latin text edited by E.C.Richardson, published in the series Texte und Untersuchungen zur Geschicte der altchristlichen Literatur, vol.14, Lipsia, 1986, pp.8,9.

External evidence to the effect that Matthew originally wrote this Gospel in Hebrew reaches as far back as Papias of Hierapolis, of the second century a.C. Eusebius quoted Papias as stating: "Matthew collected the oracles in the Hebrew language". - The Ecclesiastical History, III, XXXIX, 16. Early in the third century, Origen made reference to Matthew's account and, in discussing the four Gospels, is quoted by Eusebius as saying that the "first was written . . . according to Matthew, who was once a tax-collector but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, . . . in the Hebrew language". - The Ecclesiastical History, VI, XXV, 3-6.

Was this really Aramaic? Not according to documents mentioned by George Howard. He wrote: "This supposition was due primarily to the belief that Hebrew in the days of Jesus was no longer in use in Palestine but had been replaced by Aramaic. The subsequent discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, many of which are Hebrew compositions, as well as of other Hebrew documents from Palestine from the general time period of Jesus, now show Hebrew to have been alive and well in the first century".

It is therefore natural to conclude that when Matthew quoted passages from the OT in which the Tetragrammaton appeared (thing that occurred both in the Hebrew OT and in the Greek one then available) he would have surely left YHWH in his gospel as no Jew ever dared to take away the Tetragrammaton from the Hebrew text of the Holy Scriptures.

To confirm this there are at least 27 Hebrew versions of the NT that present the Tetragrammaton in the quotations of the OT or where the text requires it. (see app.2) Three of these are the versions of F.Delitzsch, of I.Salkinson & C.D.Ginsburg , of the United Bible Societies, ed.1991 and of Elias Hutter.

3) The Tetragrammaton in the Christian Scriptures according to the Babylonian Talmud.

The first part of this Jewish work is called Shabbath (Sabbath) and it contains an immense code of rules that establishes what could have been done of a Sabbath. Part of it deals with if on the Sabbath day Biblical manuscripts could be saved from the fire, and after it reads:

"The text declares: 'The white spaces ("gilyohnim") and the books of the Minim, can't be saved from the fire'. Rabbi Jose said: 'On working days one must cut out the Divine Names that are contained in the text, hide them and burn the rest'. Rabbi Tarfon said: 'May I bury my son if I don't burn them together with the Divine Names that they contain if I come across them". -From the English translation of Dr. H.Freedman.

The word "Minim" means "sectarians" and according to Dr. Freedman it's very probable that in this passage it indicates the Jewish-Christians. The expression "the white spaces" translates the original "gilyohnim" and could have meant, using the word ironically, that the writings of the "Minim where as worthy as a blank scroll, namely nothing. In some dictionaries this word is given as "Gospels". In harmony with this, the sentence that appears in the Talmud before the above mentioned passage says: "The books of the Minim are like white spaces (gilyohnim)."

So in the book Who was a Jew?, of L.H.Schiffman, the above mentioned passage of the Talmud is translated: "We don't save the Gospels or the books of Minim from the fire. They are burnt where they are, together with their Tetragrammatons. Rabbi Yose Ha-Gelili says: "During the week one should take the Tetragrammatons from them, hide them and burn the rest". Rabbi Tarfon said: 'May I bury my children! If I would have them in my hands, I would burn them with all their Tetragrammatons'". Dr. Schiffman continues reasoning that here "Minim" is referred to Hebrew Christians.

And it's very probable that here the Talmud refers to the Hebrew Christians. It is a supposition that finds agreement among the studious people, and in the Talmud seems to be well supported by the context. In Shabbath the passage that follows the above mentioned quotations relates a story, regarding Gamaliel and Christian judge in which there is an allusion to parts of the Sermon on the Mount. Therefore, this passage of the Talmud is a clear indication that the Christians included the Tetragrammaton in their Gospel and their writings.

Because of all we have said there are valid reasons to assert that the writers of the New Testament reported the Tetragrammaton in their divinely inspired work.

Matteo Pierro Salita S. Giovanni 5, 84135 Salerno, ITALY. e-mail cdb@supereva.it