feminism = intellectual confusion??

I'm not sure its so much confusion as a refusal to see common sense. Some feminists will distort facts in order to make claims that support their position that men are the oppressors of women. For example, by redefining male-on-female violence to include 'forceful & coercive psychological behaviour' inflates the apparent prelavence of this type of violence. Unfortunately these 'facts' then get picked up by the media and are cited by other feminists, and eventually it becomes 'common knowledge' and difficult to get anyone to even question the basis of these 'facts'.

Other feminists explicitly reject logic as a mascluline mindset, seeing logic itself part of the problem of oppression of women. This position has always baffled me, because although it serves to make argument against feminist assertions impossible, it is certainly misogynist in implying that women are inherently illogical.

So does feminism = intellectual confusion? Sadly the effort to get equal rights for women (i.e. feminism) has been hijacked by women with a misandrist agenea (ideological feminists), and the result is - in intellectual terms - one hell of a mess. In intellectual & scientific terms it is easy to dismiss the false arguments and facts, but in social terms misandry has become so entrenced in our culture it will take a generation or more before people can look back and wonder at how we all fell for this man-hating nonsense. Of course it slows progress down that most men dare not question feminist 'facts' - no matter how ludicrous - for fear of being accused of being a misogynist.

I would hope that rational adults would ALL be happy to call themselves "advocates of women's equality". Without knowing who has stopped calling themselves feminists, and claiming that feminism's definition is personal, I have no idea how I'm suppoed to answer that question. The vast majority of G&WS regulars (not counting the massive number of trolls, of course) are entirely consistent about feminism's definition, and would never say that it is unique to the individual, other than when they point out the discrepancy between feminist ideals and the public's perceoption of them.

There's also been a lot of "confusion" on other boards, about whether atheism is actually a religion, or whether apple or peach pie is better, but it doesn't make those areas of discussion any less respectable.

I completely agree with you about sexual liberation. We need to understand that most women are simply not capable of having one-night stands without at least minor emotional damage, and that this is not a weakness, but simply a difference in the way men and women are "wired".

It is all in the perspective. There is confusion because it is a wide spread ideology that can take many forms. its like pitting a protestant versus a catholic and having them debate which sect is better.

It is also a belief system that has its roots in personal perspective and culture, so that can factor in to how one views feminism. there is generally one common thread, equal opportunities for women, but even that is affected by context.

For example, I'm living and studying in the Middle East and here there is such a thing as "Islamic feminism" which states that women are equal/complimentary to men and that they deserve equal protectuion within the context of the Qur'an and Shari'a law.

There is confusion on this forum specuifically because we have a great deal of anti-fems and just people in general who have made up their minds about what feminism is, we also have people on here who identify themselves as feminists that have never studied feminist theory and have never thought about it past their own interpretation.

and to deal with your question about "sexual liberation," that again is different depending on the viewpoint, like western feminism usually insists that women should be allowed to be open and sexual beings. when they say this, they mean that a woman should be able to have a sex life and not be considered a slut. Thrid-world feminism, which is what you will find in the Middle East, India, and in most of Asia and Africa, does not define "sexual liberation" the same way. often they mean that a woman should be able to enjoy sex and not be raped inside of marriage or have their genitals mutilated against their will.

I think Socrates would definitely take feminists to task on one particular fault of our world view.

When Socrates would ask a question, like "what is beauty, truth, etc," people talking to him would mistakenly offer examples. They might say, "A sunset is beautiful." But then he would say, "But a woman (or man, he was Greek after all) can also be beautiful and they look nothing like a sunset. What is the nature of beauty that they might both posses it?"

Feminists often get too caught up in examples of oppression as the definition of oppression but they are two different things. Oppression IS not a burka, it is not a mini skirt and high heels, it is not stay-at-home motherhood, it is not the workforce, it is not the glass ceiling. These may all be examples of oppression in some instances but not others. They may have qualities of oppression but they are not oppression.

Oppression itself might be defined as being forced by outside influence and coercion into doing something against your own preferences when acting on what you want to do would not harm others in a foreseeable way.

What people feel oppressed by is something unique to the individual. Yet this also creates problems because people who feel oppressed are not always really oppressed (I cite the Christian Right as my biased example) and some people seem oppressed yet don't feel it until someone used to a different life points it out.

I think it would be more accurate to say that you had a defined vision of feminism. I have been here for a while and the definition of feminism IS as varied as the men and women in this forum. Has been since I came into G&WS.

Most feminists would agree that it is about equality. the divide comes however, when dealing with the method of acheiving equality and what action is justified to get there.

Feminists or not, we are all people who have lived different lives and experienced different things. We all bring something different to the table. Please do not fall into the trap of generalizing and grouping us all together. Also, please remember that just because we answer a question aimed at feminists does not make us feminist.

Define being a man. Define being human. Its all a matter of perspective.

Please observe awhile, before you make judgements. You'll be surprised.

it is hysterical! Feminists now realising their arguments are falling aside like moist tissue paper are actually claiming that females have been labourers too. Ha ha ha!!!! i presumed females did no longer have selections and have been homestead slaves below heavy oppression and that replaced into the tyranny you have been complaining approximately. Now abruptly females have been those going out to artwork, have been all prostitutes (no longer something has replaced has it) and females have been all the homeless people because of the fact their arguments have thoroughly fallen aside. Wow females are such liars nicely i assume after one hundred years of lies and excuses you develop into expert liars.

I try not to answer questions from people named "whiner" but here goes. I am a person who used to call myself feminist. I have a minor in Women's Studies. I chose that as a minor because I was interested in learning about women's history My learning pre-university did not have any emphasis on women, so I felt I wanted to learn about this. The program was interdisciplinary, which also appealed to me--so I took courses in literature, psychology, philsophy, history, sociology and so on. I believe it was an excellent learning experience, and I'm glad I did it. I have also, in the past, been very active with women's issues, and continue to work with single mothers and disadvantaged groups. I no longer do it because I'm a feminist, but because I believe in the intrinsic right of everyone, every human being, to be treated with dignity and respect. But it's amazing what a few people can teach you about life: over the past few months, I've come to a few conclusions about feminism and my complicity in what I now see as a very destructive ideology. There are several negative social issues that I believe can be traced back directly to feminism. I'm not going to go into them, but, in my opinion, the third wave of feminism has caused more problems that it has resolved.

Your question, however, has to do, in essence, with confusion and with women not having a clue what they're even fighting for. Trust me--I am not one of those women. I know exactly what feminism is about through studying and observing. I am not confused now, and I was not confused in the past. I have simply changed my stance on the issue, and I will never again support a feminist agenda that does nothing more than stifle debate and alienate, dismiss, and disempower the other half of the population.

It's like any "ism" --- socialism, anarchism, conservatism, it means something different to so many people that you feel like it's intellectual confusion. As for sexual liberation, I personally think it's weird how men are already free to bang whoever they want, whenever they want (and get good cred for it), while a woman is a slut/whore/degrading her gender or, at worst, game for an "honor killing". The sexual aspect is particularly ludicrous, because women are pretty much indoctrinated to believe that sluttiness/potent sexyness is a requirement to win a man's esteem (ever read GQ?) to win affection, only to get bashed by all men who didn't get none from her. Maybe even from the guys who did sleep with her.

Patriarchy is ****** up, in my opinion, but it's been the norm for so long that people naturally see feminism as confusion.

I'm amused at all this need to bash feminism.

I see people blaming everything except hurricanes and earthquakes on feminists. Do they really have that much power? Do people look at all social and economic trends, or just pick and choose things to blame on feminism?

I'm not sure why equality and fairness are so appalling to so many people.

you - Okay women, you can all be sexually, mentally, spiritually, physically, economically, and socially liberated now..........go!

me- Thanks, that is exactly what I want but I don't know how to be that person. Can you help. No? Well, freedom is not quickly learned. How do I live the life of a completely liberated person when my grandmothers and mother couldn't pass that on to me. How do I learn with so much working against me.

I only want to be labeled as a person.