How can you be certain that the 'meditative state' is the same as being fully aware?

The condition of ordinary consciousness is that there is a "knower and a thing known," a "seer and a thing seen." In other words, there's a subject and an object. There is the Ego, and that which the Ego perceives.

The goal of meditation as I've practiced it, along more or less traditional Buddhist and Hindu lines, is 1) to still the body, so that no messages from the body can disturb the mind, and 2) to still the mind. This latter is done by concentrating the mind on a single object, endeavoring to restrict the flow of thought to that object.

When this concentration is perfect, an extraordinary thing happens. The division between subject and object disappears. Suddenly there is no "Ego" opposed to "Non-Ego" - the two have become one. When this happens, there is no mistaking it. The feeling of liberation from the ordinary conditions of consciousness is the most vivid and tremendous experience possible.

I don't mean to make it sound simple. Well, actually, the process itself IS simple; but the human mind is so complex and active that checking the flow of thought is the most herculean effort imaginable. For most people in most situations, it's impossible. You need comparative isolation, and you need to be able to devote most of your waking hours either to the practice proper, or to secondary practices designed to assist with the main practice. Anything that tends to upset the mind must be cut out.

I was fortunate enough several years ago to take a mini-"retirement" (at age 19) to devote myself to these practices completely for several months. Now I'm 26, and working, and it's impossible. I continue with "transcendental" meditation practices, but I simply don't have the time or resources to practice meditation proper. Hopefully I'll be able to return to it eventually. But this is why people become monks...lol.

PS - "How can you be sure?" Good question! Really THE question par excellence. The only answer is that in comparison with the experience I've described, every other experience in life appears as vague and unreal as a dream appears to a person upon waking. In other words, it's more "real" because it FEELS more real. This sounds "iffy;" but after all, our sole gauge of the reality of anything is its rank in the hierarchy of the mind. That's exactly how we distinguish between dreams and waking. I suppose the reality of anything is always questionable; but a toothache still hurts, and this meditative experience imparts a conviction that it's impossible to shake by any mere intellectual argument.

Persons who are advanced in meditation practice and spend a lot of time in meditation sometimes experience states of "total absorption" which seem like a cross between deep sleep and pure awareness (awareness of nothing "other"). Normal awareness is sensorial and dualistic; when subconscious content becomes attenuated through the meditative process and when the mind becomes so quiet and absorbed that the sense of "other" is purged, then there is nothing to experience but a pure awareness or witness state. This has been discussed in the Upanishads such as passages in the Brihadayanyaka Upanishad, the in Advaita Vedantist texts, and in certain Buddhist texts such as the Prajnapramita Hridaya Sutra. I have experienced the state you describe both in meditation and also have entered into absorbed meditative states while sleeping and they feel different from sleep. A meditator needs to distinguish between these states of absorption and dullness and sleep. The experience is qualitatively different.

To answer your question, this state is a lesser-type state of pure awareness and absorption. Adepts speak of another state in which awareness shines more fully but, still, there is only awareness, not awareness of "other."

I'm not religious, but I do have heavy sociological / anthropological background. If you feel the need to "fear" your God, then it's because you feel guilty for something, or you want to feel victimized. Most folks don't fear their God. They love their God. God is like the ultimate leader. As Machiavelli said, a good leader must be both loved and feared. If he is just loved, then people will still do what they want against his wishes at times. If he is just feared, then they won't love their own lives, only doing what he wants out of fear of ramifications. If they love and fear him, then they will do what he wants out of love and respect first, and out of fear second. Let me try to use a different analogy for God... God, in most peoples' eyes, is like a good parent. A good parent uses 2 parts love and 1 part discipline to ensure people lead a good life. 1 part love is unconditional. God loves you unconditionally, because you are his creation. (Just as a parent loves their child unconditionally). 1 part love is for positive reinforcement. God shows you love to reward your good behavior. This is what most folks call "blessings", "miracles", etc. Parents do the same with them children; give them hugs when they succeed. 1 part discipline is used for negative reinforcement. God punishes people when they've been bad. Parents do the same to children. Now, most people will follow a Godly life simply because they respect and love God due to 1 part unconditional love, and 1 part positive reinforcement. If that doesn't work then they fear the 1 part discipline. However, what's "blessing" and "punishment" from God is subjective. Different religions, and even individuals, may see something as a blessing while others see it as a curse. Everyone can see whatever they want into something. When a mother hugs a child, it's pretty tangible that it's a hug. But, when a person finds $5 on the street is that a blessing? What if it just enables them to do something bad? I think the better way to look at God is that he gives people chances. The $5 is an opportunity. How the person chooses to use that opportunity dictates whether it's a "blessing" or "curse".

After reading your question, it seems that you are DOING meditation, which is effort of an ego. If fundamental base is in place, then we only need to create conducive environment for absorption (Samadhi) to happen. As sleep, absorption also happens, and is not result of any direct physical and mental effort. It’s like the way an environment is created to induce sleep and then finally one automatically glides into sleep.

When mastered, absorption (Samadhi) is natural state of mind with no mind, without any duality, where object of experience, experience and who is experiencing becomes one. What happens in absorption cannot be explained, because it is an experience beyond mind and five senses. Only indication is that one looses the concept of time, space and unit – and the SELF sees the SELF, which is like explaining a color to a person, who is blind from birth. But one will know “who I am”. It’s like you have seen yourself in the mirror for the first time, which has resolved all the questions and issues.

Absorption is different from OBE (you have mentioned this in your question), trans (part of your question), sleep, deep sleep, self-hypnotism, hypnotism, relaxation, concentration, meditation, hallucination and comma etc.

The conflict Nietzsche had was with "I". No one else noticed or was just as unaware as he was regarding the "I".

I think, therefore I am. My question was always... am what?

Philosophy thinks itself so expansive as it increases its vocabulary of words.... even abstract words like that of "mind".

But unless one knows what "mind" is, or "I" is, how can one just continue "thinking" when a great big "Unknown" is staring one in the face.... unless one doesn't notice this "Unknown"?

One must rise to a very high level in meditation [which is not possible without the help of a Perfect Living Master] to the point where one literally "sees" ones Soul, and then one Knows who one is. That is, one Knows who it is that has been doing all the observing.

One cannot trust entirely ones thoughts, because ones MIND can subtly provide one thoughts which are not capable of being differentiated.... and ones thoughts fed to one by ones MIND are almost always delusional in nature in that they intentionally nudge one off tract so as to prevent discovery of what ones MIND cannot perceive and thus fears [which is Spiritual Energy].

Peace

It's my opinion that the "meditative state" is being fully aware.

However, being fully aware is actually a lot more boring than most people would guess.

That, in my opinion, is the point of living. Our "ego" experiences ups and downs, good and bad, throughout our entire lives. But that experience, whether it is "good" or "bad" is more interesting than "nothing".

That's why I say that life is nothing more than the universe's way of perceiving itself. And the "boring" meditative state gives one a glimpse of the truth of that statement.

I don't know what went wrong actually.If you can be longer with no thoughts is a good progress,but you should be more active & your presense of mind will increase & you will be alert.

From what you are saying estyben, is it that you are in hallucination? Sometimes the mind does all tricks.Do you see only yourself when you feel you are like in OBE.When you are in no thought do you feel your conscious being expanded?Expansin of the mind or super conscious is very important.I'll try to get help from my senior master, about what you experience.Do you mind giving your e-mailid?

Damn, jonjon is deep. cant really add much to that, except a book thats lightly talks about the neurology of meditation and the effects on the brain of different meditative states: Awakening the Mind by Anna Wise might be halhttp://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Mind-PA-Harnessing...

I do not believe that they are one and the same thing. Personally I see the meditative state as a tool, a stepping stone on the path to greater awareness.

Om shanti.

ysteban, I cannot answer your question myself, but your method of meditation sounds very similar to that of Ozay Rinpoche. I recommend you go to http://books.google.com/ and read Chapter 8 of his book.