OFA knowledgeable people ?? What would you do?

Just playing devil's advocate--is it possible that his knees seemed weak from his being overweight?

This is a tough situation. Perhaps see what an orthopedic specialist thinks?

Edit: Yikes--It's scary what people can do to a quality dog, isn't it? I would still have an ortho check him out just to be thorough.

An overweight dog has a much higher risk for diabetes, which can cause protein loss, weakening the muscles in the legs. Obesity is also a factor in Cushing's disease and hypothyroidism, both of which can also cause muscle weakness. Heart problems can also cause weakness, especially in the rear where the weakened blood flow has the farthest to travel.

If I were you, I'd get some weight off the dog and do some blood and urine diagnostics to see where he stands. If his problem is simply that he is terribly overweight, then you'll have a good place to start from. If you get the pounds off and he is still having problems, I would guess the bloodwork might show the reasons why.

(This is all assuming your vet has eliminated the possibility of luxated patella, cruciate and meniscus ruptures, and anything trivial like a chronic sprain, broken toe, or arthritis.)

OFA rads do not always screen for knee defects, and only one angle is taken of the hips. Knees require two or more angles to positively diagnose joint problems, so no, this is not necessarily something that would have been found when the dog was OFAed.

Ask the original owner to send you copies of the origianl xrays or approve the vet to turn the over. Then allow your vet and/or the OFA to evaluate the xrays and new xrays. Then base your decision on that. These people obviously haven't taken the best care of this dog based on the condition he was in when he arrived, so I would question anything they have told you about him without further evaluation. Chances are if the dog was OFA excellent on his hips at 2 then changes are not genetic but his knees may have never been evaluated. You didn't mention the breed. Is the a breed prone to genetic knee problems? You defiantly need to "worry about it" before you breed. Sounds like some of the show people in your area aren't very responsible. Also you stated he is a retired show dog but does he have a championship or is he even pointed. The people you got him from may have been showing him but he may not be show/breed quality. If he is not even pointed I would question his quality for breeding especially given everything else.

I have a breed where patella issues are common, so I do OFA my dogs' knees (patellas).

One thing to be aware of, is patella issues are not diagnosed for OFA purposes by XRay, they are diagnosed by manual manipulation. A dog's kneecap is oblong shaped and rides in a groove (the trochlear groove).

A dog can have luxating patellas from either a shallow groove OR loose ligaments. Either can be genetic or injury induced.

I had one girl who ran full tilt into a staircase, breaking the edge off the trochlear groove, requiring surgery to repair. She was previously examined by an ortho to be clear of luxating patellas.

I had another who jumped up to her handler's arms, missed, and landed on a slippery cement floor ringside at a dog show. She finished her Championship that day, but the next day was lame. She tore a ligament, also requiring surgery. She had been cleared of patella luxation twice previous to this.

Patellas can be OFA certified, but it is not part of the hip XRay. The only thing other than Hip Dysplasia that is diagnosed at the same time is Legge Perthes Disease (also of the hips).

If you go to www.offa.org and click on Search Database, you can find out all the OFA certiifcations a dog has, as well as how old the certifications are.

My personal suggestion is, if you are trying to go forward, if there is any doubt, do not breed.

But in the end it is your decision. Good luck.

ETA: I agree, wait for any permanent decision until the weight is off and the dog is in condition. Have your vet manipulate the patellas to see if that is where the problem is. If it is an injury, it could have prevented healing by having to bear too much weight on it, especially on a concrete footing.

What breed is the dog? are you sure the OFA cert. is genuinely belonging to this animal? I mean just because they gave you a certification and AKC or WKC papers doesn't mean that this is the dog that goes with those. Does it also have a DNA cert.? If so You can re-do the DNA with the AKC to be sure this dog matches those certifications and/or papers. Let's face it...unfortunately people do LIE. I show & raise saints and an OFA certification can be for hips, elbows,knees & Shoulders, (were they all evaluated) and a genetic problem wouldn't suddenly show up at 31/2 yrs. Could be arthritis could be a million things. However the condition the dog was in as you describe it leads me to believe that all other care such as nutritious food, veterinary things like vaccinations, and other preventative care were not done on this dog for quite a while(if ever), If you got this dog to improve a breeding program...Why would you breed it ...just based on what you do know for sure it doesn't sound like a dog that should be bred to improve anything.... right now at the very least. A TRUE responsible breeder would not breed a dog without 5 generation health research and then use a dog that is in top physical & mental condition as well. I would spay/nueter this animal get it back in good health and give it all the love in your heart. good luck. I hope I have helped.

You don't say what breed, but, if it's a breed without a common factor for luxating Patellas I would think it is probably from being overweight, possibly kept on concrete, or an injury or a combination of the three.

It could possibly be the anterior cruciate ligament, problems with the ACL are common in large, overweight dogs.

I would find a knowledgeable Vet, figure out what it is exactly.

Get the extra weight off, and see how it goes from there.

You might take a look around the parent club's website and see if it mentions problems with ACL or Patellas. If not, I don't think I would worry too much about it as far as breeding goes, even the best genetic makeup will be stressed by invironmental factors.

Personally, I'd take the weight off of him, get him in shape and make my decision at that time... but I have breeds that are not generally prone to such issues (however, certain lines with lack of rear angulation and flyaway rears are prone in the Sams- so I'd assess that).

He obviously has a pedigree you're interested in with a depth of quality behind him.

A combination of overweight and lack of exercise will do bad things to a dog (or a human for that matter). The fact that its on one side only indicates that its probable that it was caused by an injury.

For the people saying "contact OFA"- knees are not usually assessed by OFA, hips are... so that wouldn't necessarily have come into the decision when grading the x-rays if the dog was positioned correctly.

My advice is to wait... get the dog to a good weight and in condition. Maybe something else will come up that will help you decide. Once you've neutered him its too late. (I know several people who've neutered dogs and then regretted it... including myself).

Was the dog OFA hips/elbows the only thing done? If so then the knees weren't even involved in the x-ray and have nothing to do with it. If the kness were also OFA then it would be from an injury not from genetics since what was geneticly on x-rays from the age of 2 years is what it is..it will not change.

A vet can x-ray the knee and find out what the injury involves...they can also check for ACL tears.

You didn't meantion what breed he was.

My first observation is that OFA Excellent would only be the rating of the hips and has nothing to do with the condition of the knees. If the knees were OFA certified it would say "Knees Normal". You can look the dog up on the OFA web site to verify all certifications.

I'm no vet and can't evaluate a knee over the net anyway, but we all know that either is possible.

Before I supported either option, I would more closely question the person you got the dog from. Ask if he's had a traumatic injury. Ask if they noticed him favoring that leg. Ask for a full transcript of his vet records. If the problem is that he acidentally tore a ligament in the knee, and it went unnoticed by the previous owners, that would not be genetic, and in most cases, it would be repairable via surgery. Sometimes dogs DO injure their stifles and it DOES get missed by the owner. Find out as much as you can before you make a permanent decision. I think you are ethical enough to know what to do when you finally have all the pieces to the puzzle.

Lux Saiting patella, or ACL injury (spelling sorry) and wt is a big issue. If the vets can't say for sure this from injury or genetic it's best to neuter. I would get him back in healthy condition, and see what happens. Also x-rays might be good to see if there is arthritis set in some were hips/knees.