In Reading many Answers from Jewish Posters-That no one can be a Jew if they believe in Jesus Christ?

Please become informed of history before writing posts like this.

Jesus couldn't have been Christian. He couldn't follow himself. He lived and died an observant Jew, as did his family and friends. And before Paul, Nazarene Jews did not believe in the Trinity or that Jesus was G-d incarnate. They merely believed he was the Messiah. When the whole "G-d" thing came up many Nazarene Jews didn't approve and even left.

The ones that didn't broke off from the main tenets of Judaism, thus no longer being Jews.

And besides that, the "New Testament" applies in no form to Jews. That is a CHRISTIAN book, not a Jewish book. We have NO New Testament.

And in the Torah, Jesus isn't mentioned at all. It just says that saying you're G-d is blasphemy and so is saying G-d can be more than One and Whole in any way, shape or form.

However, in short answer, true Nazarene Jews WOULD have been seen as Jewish. They celebrated Jewish holidays, they followed the Jewish mitzvot, they did not believe in Trinity or that Jesus was G-d, and they didn't condemn people who didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah.

The changes made by Paul, the condemnation of those who do not believe in the Messiah, the belief in a Trinity or that G-d is anything but One and Whole, etc., etc... THOSE things broke off Christianity and Judaism.

In another world, Islam might have been merely a branch of Judaism. You realize one of the main things that cut the divide was a misconception that we had a long time ago that Muslims worshipped idols (ultimately it was decided there can be no "additions" so therefore Muslims cannot be considered Jewish - just righteous Gentiles like everyone else including Christians). Likewise, in another world without Paul's form of Christianity, Christianity would have either died out or become a mere sect of Judaism. But it broke off too much. There is no sect of Christian (accepts Jesus as the Messiah) that maintains all the tenets of Judaism anymore.

Look at it this way - in Orthodox Judaism I am not Jewish. Conservative Judasim doesn't observe the mitzvot at a deep enough level to be considered Jewish by Orthodox standards. Orthodox used to not mind Conservative until we began doing some major "no-no's" involving egalitarianism, and more importantly, things like driving on Shabbat. But I share the same tenets of faith - Moses, Abraham, one G-d, 613 mitzvot, teshuvah, shivah, etc., etc.

Even with all those similarities, I'm only Jewish with liberal sects (or almost Jewish anyway). Judaism knows what it is, more or less. There are standards.

In every generation, there is a great Jewish scholar that some people follow believing that he is the Messiah.

But the difference between Jews and Christians is that when a theoretical Messiah dies in Judaism and he hasn't fulfilled the prophecies... They stop believing he was the Messiah. They go back to waiting for the Messiah. Because it's supposed to happen in one lifetime. And they don't believe that he's G-d, either. The instant it involves a "second coming" instead of one lifetime, it's over.

Not all the gospels were written by Jews. Luke was a gentile.

The early Christians were not pagans who worshipped Jesus. The trinity was not made up yet. There were many false messiahs, so the early Christians were no different than any other gullible Jew who fell for the false messiahs claims.

Christians are mostly pagans now, so if a Jew believes Jesus he is also a pagan. Jesus has nothing to do with Judaism, just like Buddha has nothing to do with Christianity.

To believe Jesus is the messiah is to reject G-d since G-d made it clear in the Tanakh(old testament) who the messiah is and what he will do. Jesus did nothing, infact he dousnt even come close to fitting the description of the messiah.

It even says in the gospel that Jesus broke the sabbath, insulted his mother and let a woman touch his legs. Pretty obvious he is not the messiah.

The messianic prophecies were very clear. Let's just consider the universal recognition of the messiah. Since Jesus was alleged to have been here, twice as many people globally reject Jesus as accept him. Not enough? Global peace was to have been established, yet since Jesus' day, we've had opposite of this. How about the prophecy that said the messiah would be human, not some man/god hybrid? There are big lists of unfulfilled prophecies - you can look for them if you are genuinely curious. Add to this the fact that there is NO corroborative evidence Jesus ever existed, let alone fulfilled even ONE prophecy, and it is pretty clear why there is disagreement. What is not clear is how anyone could buy it in the first place.

You make some good points as I have tried to say many times on this forum. Here are the facts according to scripture.

The church was established at Pentecost by Messianic Jews.

The first martyr was a Messianic Jew.

Our Bible was written by Messianic Jews.

And the Gospel is going to be preached during the tribulation period by Messianic Jews.

As for those who say you cannot believe in Jesus and still be a Jew. You will have to argue with Paul about that.

Acts 22:3

“I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers’ law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today."

Acts 24:14

"But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

Acts 26:5-6

“...according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers."

Just because you believe in the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy of your scriptures does not change your lineage. That would be some trick. A Jew is one who has a Jewish lineage and believes in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Period!

Acts 26:22

"Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come."

Let me ask you this-- if I took the Bible and made a New and Improved Testament, and taught people new doctrine about a Goddess who came down to complete Jesus' work and lead us all to the Summerlands-- we Goddess worshippers believe this is the extension/completion of Christianity that God had always intended, and even though you may disagree with the translation, it was prophecized in the Bible many many times, you just haven't realized it yet... maybe one day you will and then you will be at peace for finally understanding God's word and accepting your own Goddess he sent for you.

So, should people who follow this Goddess still be considered Christian? Because after all, this Goddess was prophecized in the Bible and is a natural extension to Christianity...

You are right about that lady. Whoever believes in Jesus as Christ, is a Christian. You cannot become a Christian and claim that you are still Jewish.

The Gospels were not written by Jews. Mark

and Luke were not Jewish. And the guys who wrote Matthew and John were not Jewish either. You have to read them all without preconceived notions and with an analytical mind to see that the writers of the whole NT were not Jewish. Except for Paul,

but he also had quit Judaism to found Christianity. Therefore, he was no longer a Jew.

The writers of the Gospels did not have to announce that they were not Jewish. And one does not have to have a PhD to see that they were not.

The real Jesus of Nazareth, Joseph and Mary Magdalene were full Jews, but the Christ of Paul was not. The Christ of Paul didn't even exist. It was conceived in the Hellenistic mind of Paul in order to found Christianity.

No one at that time that Jesus delivered the Sermon of the Mount accepted Jesus as the

Messiah because Jesus never claimed to be the one.

The NT distinguishes only between the Sect

of the Nazarenes founded by the Apostles of Jesus and the Sect of the Christians founded by Paul. And the Nazarenes had never heard that Jesus was the Messiah till

Paul showed up with that idea.

Show me a Jew who believes in Jesus as Messiah and I'll tell you how much of a Christian he is.

I am sorry to have rained so much on your parade. But your question required a long answer.

Crimson,

Your question interests me because I have friends that believe in Jesus that have Jewish parents, Jewish families. In some cases their grandparents died in the Holocaust just because they were Jews. According to posters at this site, they are not Jewish, because Jewish is a religion. But an atheist is Jewish, because it's not just a religion.

But my real question is for those (like Paperback) who say that the Messianic Jews are a new group, formed and led by a Baptist preacher. Meaning no disrespect to Paperback, that is simply not true. Since I doubt these posters are lying, I am curious where they got that story?

I think I'll ask it as a question, but wait until tomorrow, so those observing Shabbat will have a chance to answer.

<sigh>. Here we go again.

Sorry you don't like it, but belief in Jesus is completely incompatible with being Jewish. Period.

A Jew who practices another religion, whether it be Christianity (in any of its forms, including Messianic "Judaism"), Islam or anything else, is known as an "apostate." An apostate is someone who has removed themselves from the Jewish people by joining another faith. The apostate cannot be buried in a Jewish cemetery. Nor can the apostate be counted for a minyan, the minimum of ten adult Jews (or adult Jewish men, depending on one's denomination) needed for saying certain prayers. For nearly all practical purposes, they have the same status in the Jewish community as non-Jews. The only difference is that they do not have to undergo a full conversion to rejoin the Jewish community, though there is a process known as "Teshuvah" that they must go through to come back to the Jewish community with full Jewish status.

So, once we delve into Jewish law we see that a Jew who joins another religion, though still Jewish, has ostensibly the status of a non-Jew and is no longer able to participate as a full member of the Jewish community. The apostate has the weakest of all grasps to their Jewish identity, they are Jewish by birth but otherwise have no position in the Jewish community.

Worshipping Jesus is like worshipping the Golden Calf - sorry to have to say this, but you obviously don't understand it. Jesus is as much a messiah as the Golden Calf was.

Did you know Mary actually thought Jesus was crazy? Obviously not, your indoctrination doesn't leave room for questioning. In OUR Bible it says to watch out for false prophets - JESUS WAS A FALSE PROPHET. (What are false prophets? Essentially those who claim they are something but don't deliver. Did Jesus fulfill the messianic prophecies? No.)

How can you believe Jesus was the Messiah if he didn't fulfill the prophecies? It's like believing that the sky won't rise tomorrow because your fish died - COMPLETELY NONSENSICAL.

By the way - your historical precept is WRONG. Christianity, which is to say, Jesus worship, appealed mainly to the pagans of the time, NOT to the Jews. It's MUCH more likely that if you come from a long line of Christians, that NONE of them were EVER Jewish to begin with.

PS. THIS IS NOT a debate forum, like you said in your previous questions. It's a Q&A forum.

Being Jewish, back then, was being of the tribe of Judah, it was very much a physical thing, as they had to stay in that certain tribe waiting for the Messiah or Savior. Once that savior came, through the tribe of Judah, it mattered not which tribe you were of, because Salvation was to ALL PEOPLE not just jews.

Those people were *mostly* of the jewish religion, but not really of the Talmud or anything - "The Talmud was written between the second and fifth century CE, but Orthodox Jews believe it was revealed to Moses along with the Torah and preseved orally until it was written down."

http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/texts/talmud....

Supposedly they followed the Talmud, definately the pharasees and other religious politicians (they held political power because of their religious position), seemed to have followed all these things, as Jesus mentions they follow many rules and regulations.

These people's "Jewish" religion was basically Christianity but waiting for Jesus, once Jesus came they still were of the tribe of Judah and still held the same basic belief system, so they still called themselves Jews, because - they were.

Jewish people today are people who are still waiting for Jesus to come (or whoever they think their messiah is). The reason for this is that in the first century AD (I will not say CE), people labeled these Jews who believed in Jesus as Christians (as Jesus is "The Christ"). The only reason that people started calling them a different name is that *some* of the Jewish people claimed that Jesus was not their messiah, for whatever reason. Those people said they were the true Jews and still waiting, and the others didn't mind being called Christians, after the Christ, so it just changed.

Today, with the definition of a Jew being spiritual as well as physical, but being someone who does not believe their messiah has come, one cannot be a Jew if you believe in Jesus.

Hope that explained it a bit.