ITF/WTF union: Three questions?

I'd like a unified Poomse curriculum.

Less rules in competitions (leg sweeps to backs of legs & limited hand techniques to head yes, grappling and judo style throws no)

Mandatory self defense curriculum from kukkiwon.

James

I used to wish really hard that they would merge but after I spent time with WTF guys in different countries, then moved to US I discovered that it's two different martial arts.

Two different ways to see things. ITF in general have more emphasis on the traditional part of Martial Art when WTF became more and more focused on the sport side. Of course, some WTF instructors might be more traditional but it's still a huge gap. Why WTF is so popular? It has been so promoted by South Korea that it became an Olympic Game (it's where the downfall of that Martial Art happened) While ITF was considered to be from the evil North Korean faction.

Also WTF is so easy to market. You go there, you learn in a month about 10 types of kicks, you learn nice combos and do a couple of punches and that makes people feel good without being all complicated. As someone mentioned WTF patterns are much easier. So another thing that people won’t get annoyed with. Whilst ITF you learn harder patterns with many positions that you need to measure almost with a ruler. All the movements need to be perfectly executed with an added difficulty of the sine wave. In order to succeed a breaking you need to have a clean technique. So why bother when you can just kick on a pad and think you cool? While you fight in ITF you use a lot of hand techniques and in WTF it’s discouraged because it’s not point effective.

What I’m trying to say is that they have different approach, philosophy and what has remained in common is some Korean terminology.

So no I’m against it now and I like the fact that ITF is annoying with all its details. It's a constant challenge to be perfect and life should be like this. In other hand, if you can master a martial art in a few years it's not a true one. How could people do 3, 4 and 5 martial arts when just one takes a life time to master is beyond me.

I apologize to the WTF people but I’m being honest if not tactful. A martial art which has people being called a Master at 4th dan after about 10 years of practice for me it’s not really serious…

But don’t worry I know that some WTF practitioners are really good and continue to be true to Martial Art spirit but it’s not about them I’m talking about. Unfortunately it’s far to be the majority that’s why I think nothing good will come from merging both of them.

Excellent question by the way

There are three ITF's that all claim they are the true organization: one is in Canada, one is in Austria and one is in North Korea. Put them all together and they still aren't as big as the WTF.

I have taken both styles. The WTF focuses way more on sparring, less on forms, less on breaks and about the same on self-defense. The ITF's focus more on forms, more on breaking, less on sparring and about the same on self-defense. WTF styles are more likely to have instructors that teach other styles such as Hapkido or Judo - ITF was mainly taught by people that only learned that style as General Choi left Korea while promoting ITF style and didn't learn the other styles the way they did / do in Korea after he left. ITF stylist are more likely to learn only one style and be discouraged from branching out [my experience] to other styles.

I think they should merge all four . . . come up with standardization on learning forms [probably like the WTF as they are simpler] and sparring that is a combination of the two - full power with strikes to head allowed and chest guards, head gear with gloves and sweeps allowed. Since people in one ITF organization could change to another as they are learning the same information, if the WTF even merged with one or two there would be people that would switch to the new organization that had merged.

I learned sine wave because I had to, but it was like dancing to me! I didn't feel it increased my power the way it was supposed to and there was no way to use in sparring as it slows down your footwork. I would hope if merged they would do away with sine wave. Goes back to the "one punch, one kill" concept - boxers learn real power in their punches and they certainly don't go for the one big punch if they want to be effective and they don't lower their bodies every time they punch! Good question!

Interesting question, and one that has been debated on a few different levels.

I agree with Some of what James said, and some of what Francois said. I have to digress for a minute and offer a correction to ament's answer though: the three "divisions" of ITF are based one in Canada, which is currently headed by General Choi's (grand?)son, Master Choi, Hong Hwa, and the other two are based in Austria, where they are divided on who actually filed corect paperwork, who holds the "legal" claim to call themselves the HQ, and all three squabbling over political and philosophical differences. Quite honestly, until the three factions of the ITF get their act together and can re-unify, then a WTF/ITF merger is most assuredly, in my opinion, out of the question.

However, to give the argument some thought, there would need to be quite a bit of face-saving. According to the research that I have done, the original split which resulted in the WTF/ITF schools of thought occurred when General Choi wished to take his Korean art to all of the world, INCLUDING North Korea. Being a General in the South Korean army, this was naturally frowned upon by the South Korean Government. General Choi basically said "I'm doing it anyway", at which point the South Korean Government disowned him and considered him a disgrace. It is interesting to note that this breach of honor was viewed so seriously in the martial arts world that he was actually stripped of a Fourth Dan rank that he held in another discipline. It is also interesting to note that all of what is seen in the ITF now, from the 24 patterns to the sinewave/knee spring, did not all fully exist at the time of the original split. Remember, Tae Kwon do is a conglomeration of different disciplines that existed and which General Choi had studied as a young man.

So, moving on: after General Choi left, the instructors he had trained, who stayed loyal to the South Korean Government (and I am condensing here in the interest of time) continued to develop, and eventually realized the fruition, of the Kukkikwon, the WTF, and the entry of South Korean Tae Kwon Do being recognized as an olympic sport. By this time, the techniques, patterns, et. al., had been watered down to the point that they barely resembled the form that General Choi had perpetuated prior to his exile (to Canada, for the record).

Okay, enough of the history lesson, and I am sure there are some discrepancies with other's research, so on to the actual question. IF there were a merger of the ITF/WTF schools of thought, I would first like to see a standardization of the poomsae/tuls. Personally I prefer the ITF tuls, as they are more technical, require more precise technique, and from an asthetic point of view, are more flowing and ART-ful.

As for the sinewave/knee spring, this has been studied extensively, and in conjunction with proper reaction force (help me out here, ITF guys), results in more powerful and effective technique. Granted, in an actual confrontation, the movements will be GREATLY accelerated from what is seen in the patterns, but that is the point: muscle memory to the exent of near automatic execution in a stressed situation, with greater result from utilizing the force of the ENTIRE body instead of just the strength of the limbs. A nod to Master Lee here: this is the concept behind his "one inch punch". He utilized his ENTIRE body's strength, not just the strength of his arm, to effect the technique.

For sparring, I would like to see a LITTLE more allowance for harder contact, but the philosophy behind light contact in Tae Kwon Do is this: ANYONE can blast through a target with enough training. However, executing the same technique AT FULL SPEED AND POWER, and having the control over your technique to the point of being able to stop it just prior to, or immediately upon contact with your target, is a much better indicator of your skill than simply taking someone's head off. Having the control to STOP the technique, as I have learned through practice and application, translates to more power in the technique.

Would I like to see a merger happen? Eventually. Is it likely in the near future? I don't think it is likely; too many personalities, too much honor, and too much political power is at stake for this to happen any time soon.

what i want to happen is hand techniques to the head and body a few grappling techniques such as sweeps, certain throws and take downs.