So what exactly are these "other ways of knowing"...?

What I hear from their attempts is "My faith was proven to me by X - and you should have faith because of it, too...oh, crap, that's not actually any kind of proof, huh? Well, you don't need proof when you have faith! (Damn, why is it I believe again?)"

Science should never be injected into faith. If you're going to "have faith" just freakin' do it and stop trying to destroy faith with "proof".

Other ways, Reverend? Only one way that I know of. Ask yourself "Who am I?" Do not ask anyone else. All else is a variation of this question. One can start out asking some other question, but eventually the question does become this one. The question has a history older than spoken or recorded history and the result is always the same. Eventually, to genuine askers, the answer becomes so obvious that he/she will never need a pastor again. The very idea or concept of a "pastor" will come to seem like a hoax played out on him/herself. There are no answers of any usefulness found anywhere else outside asking oneself. With this answer the question of "proof" is moot. Other's claims based on belief or even their personal faith cannot be falsified - and who would want to - as they are also personal and in response to their own search. You may think you have a better answer, but you only have your answer. Leave others strictly alone, and if you really asked that question seriously, you will naturally want to leave others alone - unless they ask as you have done here. You will understand both the meanness and the futility of any religious agenda. You will be flattened by the authentic sense of compasion. Talk about it? Don/t bother because words are only concepts based on yet other concepts. God realization is not a concept. Words are only pointers at best. In reality, you have said nothing. If you really are a Reverend, then your best help for your flock would be to answer their questions with a steady loving gaze and complete silence. That should do until you and they get the hang of it.

Good Luck. Check that you are still breathing...you have just found god if you are.

It’s an age old question from the enlightenment, but I approve of revisiting the past so we don’t make the same mistakes in the future.

If I recall correctly empirical evidence is not necessarily the only kind of evidence that is valid, but is considered more valid than subjective evidences because they describe the external world. It wasn’t until Karl Popper's positivism that subjective knowledge was completely removed from scientific enquiry (for the best really). The awkwardness that follows Popper is that currently we do not have the technology to measure some things yet, even if they are possible to measure in principle. It isn’t possible to measure a belief for example, even though in principle may be possible in the future.

So, beliefs are not scientific?

What about your belief in liberty, or human rights? If you hold these beliefs I am sure you would assert them as truths, or moral ideals, but if asked to prove them and explain your reasoning you probably wouldn’t convince any skeptics.

Here is the safe refuge of religion and other crackpot philosophies. We cannot measure them, so we cannot prove them. The standards do not hold investigation and the margin for error is unknowable. All we can do is listen to the ideas and use reason to spot inconsistencies and irregularities.

To post my own food for thought:

'Truth is great and will prevail.' - Madison

'The truth is cruel, but it can be loved, and it make free those who have loved it.' - Santayana

do you know if you are? do you know if tour a guy, or a girl. how do you know that the people who say they love you really do? Have you ever taken another route or changed your mind about something just because YOU KNOW- that that way is the wrong way-or that what you percieved about someone in not what they seem to be? And you have been CORRECT! You had no evidence to back up this "feeling" but doggone it, you were right? I love to back & document statements & to have reason to feel the way I do about certain things that I would call intuition. But after 40 years there are some things that belong to God. Mabye it will be that you will be like the sildjers in The Big War, Tere were suddenly NO athiests on the beach @ Normandy. But, where had they all gone? They were the first to cry out for "God"? Visit a VA hospital and talk to some very " intuitave" folks there. Smart, learned men,not onlike yourself. Ask them, if you really want to know the answer to that question, or do you just like to ask questions allready assumung you know the answer.

I read a response once that said 'If you can't see for yourself, I might as well try to teach calculus to Aborigines. (no offense to the Aborigines)

That's what it's like hearing their responses. Especially the one that says history and archeology prove the Buy-bull. Funny, every historical and archaeological piece I've seen and/or read has done quite the opposite.

I don't understand why they get so offended when an ages old myth is proven untrue.

Edit: a simple biology class that discusses the brain's different functions and reactions that deal with how they perceive and/or 'feel' things, would blow them away

I dont know where to really begin to answer this question...so I am going to just let it flow from the heart.

My heart and mind is able to stay open to what other's feel and believe because for alot of years, I lived in fear with no direction.

Everything had to be logically explained to me...everything hadd to "fit"

I found myself in a place of desperation and despair, and I called out to HIM...I asked Him if He was real then why had He forsaken me, why was the world the way that it is, why, why, why?!!!!

And then...the miracles started appearing...small shifts of perception...little occurences that I wouldnt have noticed before.

Believing in a Power Greater than yourself is a very personal thing.

I have great Love and respect for those who dont believe because, I have been there!!...and I know that it something that cannot be explained.

Mere words could never do It justice.

So, I have said all this and have probably left you saying..."WTF, another one of these!!"

That's all I got and felt compelled to say it.

Peace to you.

If you are a blind person born into the world of the seeing, you quickly learn that other people can do things that you cannot. You may not understand what sight is, or have a concept of colors, but you notice that other people seem to buzz around you at speeds far above your own capacity.

People who are spiritually blind are the same way. They perceive there is something different about other people, and they try to work it out logically. They seek proof of the self-evident. They feel threatened by the disperity, and fight what they don't understand. They often mock, and criticize and ridicule what they cannot perceive.

Friend, everything in the Universe cannot be quantified, categorized and reduced to the lowest common denominator...there are some things, thankfully, that are a mystery...you limit yourself when thinking as you do in this question...

I don't know much about the theologian's but really the only way to know is through your own experience, you find a method that you feel might work and follow through with it, your experience is everything if beliefs don't show results they are worthless.

Eyes have not seen and ears have not heard the glory of God, they are like statues they have ears but they hear not, eyes have they but they see not. Do you have my Djarumm?I need my smokes, oh yes the question at hand.

Metaphysics, false generalizations, ignorance of statistical expectations, and regarding subjective feeling as empirical evidence.