Is it valid to compare "Christian" anti-gay attitudes with "Christian" racism?

I think what has always been lacking in this discussion is honesty on both sides. First of all, though I did my graduate work in an ACTS accredited seminary, better trained scholars than myself have debunked Boswell's attempts to recast the letter to the Romans as referring to pederasty. We have a vast database of contemporary Greek language correspondence and know perfectly well what malakoi meant at the time Paul wrote. His writing was consistent with OT and Rabbinical condemnation of the wasting of seed in a nation desperate to grow its numbers in the face of foreign conquerors. The verses are in no wise "vague" simply because many, including me, may wish it so, and we have a similarly scarce number of verses referring to a number of doctrines.

The Biblical condemnation of homosexuality is unequivocal and clear. So was the slaughter of the captive women and children in Numbers 31. Given the latter, I think it's perfectly reasonably to set aside claims of divine moral authority for the entire Bible and ask, why should we care about the demands of a god that flooded the entire earth, killing men women, children and farm animals just to start over again with a man who the first thing he does when the waters recede is get dead drunk, or a god who makes bets with the devil and allows him to murder a man's entire family just to prove a point of discussion.

I think it's a fruitless pursuit to attack the clarity of scripture or historic church teachings on homosexuality. The facts are completely against you as Judaism and Christianity are utterly homophobic and always have been so. The more rational approach is to be blunt about the irrelevance of these man-made scriptures and religions concocted by men who thought cerebral palsy was caused by demons and cured by magic.

I see what you mean, but, you have to remember that for most of the history of the world, there has been slavery, and, you can make a case that there still is slavery of one kind or another.

The only difference is that now slaves are called employees. Our economic structure has just changes as our standard of living has increased enough for the employees to be able to work for different masters (employers) and seek a better deal.

So many of those old laws about treating your slaves with respect still apply when looking at the employee / empolyer relationship. It is also important to note that for much of the history of the world Slaves were not brutally mis-treated. It was an accepted state in life for all of them and there were no higher oppourtunities available or no education available to change that. Not all slaves were Black!

Now, I am not condoning Slavery! Just trying to point out some history.

So, when you get to homosexuality, you have to get back to the Bible, and is specifically says that marriage is between a man and a woman, that is what I also believe that it should be.

There is no sin for being Gay, sin comes from the homosexual act. This is a hard teaching and one of the reasons that we need to be respctfull to those that are born that way. Gay people can be called to a life of Chastity, I know some that are, it is a different life, but it is what it is.

But they should not be descriminated against, they should have equil rights to employment, housing, everything. If they want to live together, and gain tax advantages, they should be able to. It is just not a "Marriage" as defined by the Bible.

Hope this helps!

Peace!

The Bible was written hundreds of years ago, it stands to reason that our opinions and attitudes to different groups of people would have changed. When society's attitude changes, people end up interpreting things in different ways for example the Bible.

Many Christians split into different groups because of the way the Bible should be interpreted, some thought literally and some thought spiritually. Since the Bible is translated using words and thoughts from olden-day Europe we can assume that the original text may be interpretted differently by today's people.

The anti-black and anti-gay movements are remarkably similar however the anti-black feeling was simply misinterpretation, the Bible does actually say homosexual relations are bad. People just don't feel comfortable with quick changes, especially when a majority of those people have a faith that does not accept something like homosexual relations.

I'm a Christian and I took a moment to consider this. I'm going to say yes and no. Yes, because I have seen a lot of Christians with a lot of fear and hate towards gays, and they use scripture to back up their feelings, which is completely wrong, and which is exactly what was done with anti-black Christian propoganda. However, I would disagree that there is an exact parallel in the Christian push against gay rights and the Christian push against black civil rights. My reasoning is this: Scripture clearly states that homosexuality is wrong. It is a sin. No one is creating that statement or bending it out of context. On the other hand, people had to really stretch and bend scripture completely out of context to find anything that would remotely justify opressing a group of people based on color. So while I agree that the attitudes of some Christians towards gays parallel directly with the attitudes of some Christians towards racism, I don't think the issue of the Christian resistance towards gay rights and black civil rights can be completely correlated.

Two statements in the Bible stand out in my mind when I'm on this forum:

1) Judge NOT

2)Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I've noticed a lot of picking at scripture to justify views when there is an equal scripture that contradicts it.

As a pagan my laws are clear. Being gay is nothing bad. Gays have a right to find love just like heterosexuals do. I don't see how Christianity or any religion has anything to do with being homosexual.

God created the human race and man created divisions based on skin colour. God's creation has a deliberate order and is evident in His Word and His design of the human body. Homosexual sex is a direct violation of that order and man does not have any "right" to redefine God's creation any more than he had the right to redefine man's importance based on race. Your reasoning on this is extremely flawed. Your "Anti-gays.." opener is waay too presumptuous. I'm not about to shut out some very precious people from my life that God has placed there because YOU say I am against them. They themselves would confront you pretty quickly. You were not there when stories were shared and tears were cried and you are, quite frankly, out of line. Your stance reminds me of a local activist that accused a man of being "anti-AIDS" ....as if we should all be for it!!

Actually, I think it is the human interpretation of the Bible that has changed. In your example, slavery... My opinion, it is not "endorsed" so much as guidelines are given for those who are going to do it anyway. The Bible also has a passage somewhere (I'll have to look it up) that says something like "He who strives to be master, let him be servant of all." That would suggest to me that God doesn't wish us to have human slaves at all, don't you think?

I think the same can be said of homosexuality. The price Jesus paid makes it possible for EVERYONE to go to heaven, whether they are gay or not. The first and foremost Biblical requirement is "Believe in me (Jesus)". If a gay person believes in Jesus and has Him in their heart, it would be hypocritical for me to say that they are not going to heaven, when I have my own sins that make me unworthy. Our opinions ABOUT what is written in the Bible is constantly changing.

I believe it is similar in that a person uses his religion as a means to validate his prediliction to discriminate against ANYONE for ANY reason.

However, for some reason the anti-gay sentiments are much more entrenched in society's long standing mores.

And I believe it has a lot to do with gays disrupting the traditional male role of dominance and requiring women to be submissive. Add to this the apparent loathing many people feel for same sex activity and we have a powerful force directing people to persecute homosexuals.

You will note that the majority of this persecution is aimed at men. Not lesbians.

Of course the justification of this continued intoollerance and persecution has been incorporated into the Judeo-Christian heritage thus exacerbating man's prediliction for intolerance and liking to show that HE is superior by condemning a group he can totally allow himself to NOT identify with.

Just about ANY persecution and discrimination can find "quotes" within scripture to "proove" that one's actions and "beliefs" are just and blameless.

It took "Christianity" over 1000+ years to recognixe that the Bible is wrong and that lending money at interest is NOT wrong.

It took "Christianity" over 1700+ years to recognixe that the Bible is wrong and that the institution of slavery is to be condemned.

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It took "Christianity" over 1800+ years to recognixe that the Bible is wrong and that women deserve equality to men, and need not subject them to their authority.

It took "Christianity" over 1900+ years for the Christian community to START to recognize that the Bible is wrong and that loving committed homosexual relationship are NOT wrong. Anmd in fact are GOOD for the people involved and GOOD for society.

But we still have a long way to go. Note that segretation did NOT end by the majority enacting laws. It took the Supreme Court in 1955 to enforce equality under the law. It also took the Supreme Court in 1967 to do away with anti-misogeny laws and allow inter-racial marriage in almost half the country which prohibited it.

Fortunately today there is a greater racial tolerance in this country and most people no longer are "bothered" by inter-racial marriage.

What I have difficulty understanding, even after centuries of racial discrimination, I find black people even more inclined towards intollerance of homosexuals than whites.

The solution, at least in part, is to encourage anything which may help people actually identify in some way to the gay community or specific people within that community. That is why it is so important for gays to be open with their life so that the aberage person can see that we are just like everyone else. We merely desire to fall in love and to marry the person we fall in love with,

Unfortunately, for the FIRST time in this country's existence Amendments are being passed to TAKE AWAY civil rights of gay's right to marry. Many courts in many states are now also starting to use these amendments to even take away the small selection of civil rights we had gained over the past 50 years. This has happened in Virginia and has just occurred in Michigan.

I appeal to those reading this. Please judge us NOT on an insignificant factor of our sex act, but instead judge us on the love engendered by our committed relationships. And stop doing eberything in your power to discourage them.

Interesting questing Jon.

No, it's not valid. First, Christianity doesn't promote racism (the belief that one race of people is superior to others). In Christianity, there is one race, the race of man. No Jew nor Greek, male nor female, etc. Remember Eph 4:4?

There have been prejudiced (pre judging) and racism in Christianity. The LDS for example, continue to curse the descendants of Ham, of course, they aren't within the body of orthodoxy Christianity either.

Homosexuality can't be equated with civil rights in any way. Homosexuals have the right that any other American has, they just don't have the special rights that they want. That's hugely distinct from withholding rights afforded to all Americans against someone based on their race, as America did at one point in her history.

Good question though.

The verses used to prove the former wrongs were as you pointed out, wrong. Obviously. Not all Christians fell for the lies though, including the ones about slavery.

As for the anti-sin verses, these have been interpreted correctly. It does list certain behaviors as sinful. Homosexuality among them.

Hardly racist. In the eyes of the world, we are viewed as many things. We just believe God, and follow Him.