Opinions needed on RK's comments?

I agree with you. When I was in public school, I was always with the same people all the time. At one highschool I was always with a wealthy population of spoiled white boys and girls. At another I was mostly with lower-middle class students who could barely string together a sentence. Then there's all that segregation that goes on. I never got to spend time with older or younger students. Always the students inmy grade. One school I remember considering actually had a seperate wing they built (seperated by an iron gate with a lock) that was JUST for freshmen. The freshmen didn't even walk through the rest of the school to get to class. They had their own entrance as well. One middle school I attended had "teams" for each grade level. Two for each... One for more advanced students, and one for less advanced. You only had class with people on your "team" and you had a specific set of teachers that only taught that team. Furthermore, each team had their own wing of the school where they had most of their classes, and they only mixed two teams (of the same grade level) for two elective classe3s a day. The only exception to this rule was the gifted program who worked in groups mixing 6th, 7th, and 8th graders, but that only lasted for the first year I was there and then they had to seperate by age in ALL teams, even though the gifted students were still all doing the same work regardless of age. So in this school, you were seperated by age AND intelligence level. How will you ever mature if you're never exposed to those more mature than you are? And why shouldn't older students play role model to younger students and just get to socialize with everyone?

Then you have schools that keep their disabled students bunched together. Three blind kids, all of different levels of skill and independence, are in the same biology class. Teacher says it's time for a group project, and while everyone else is allowed to pick their groups, the three blind kids aren't given a choice. They must work together on everything. Because of this, one of the kids is endlessly frustrated because she ends up doing all of the work because the others haven't mastered their braille or computer skills yet. The others don't develop socially because the only social examples they have are other blind children who still haven't grown out of blind manerisms (rocking, shaking your hands, etc). They dont get to talk to the sighted kids or work in teams with the sighted kids, and are so often seperated from the mainstream that they never actually feel like they're even a part of the class.

How is ANY of this considered to be a good social environment?

As a homeschooler, I mix with so many differe3nt kinds of people in and out of that lenghty list of activities I posted on the question this one is branching off of. I mix with both adults and teenagers at my art and fencing classes, I mix with blind kids and kids with many other "disabilities" at NFB camps or at Transition club, the three friends in my band are all very different (all blind, but varying levels of vision, different ages, some in community college, some at university, different economical backgrounds, etc). In the Student Ambassador program we are always meeting people of different cultural and economical backgrounds, different religious backgrounds, different ages and levels in school, and so on. Outside of the school buildings is where you'll find the REAL melting pot. Teens, young adults, college students, tweens, people from the gated neighborhoods, people from the inner city neighborhoods, people who live out in the less developed parts of town where you can keep animals, people who live in the more suburban areas where you have just enough land behind your house for a picnic table or a swing but no more, people who live on the water, people who live in tall, crouded apartment buildings, people who are just learning to speak English, people whose family comes from the phillipines, people who may have family outside our country waiting to be allowed in, people who will have to leave our contry as soon as they get their highschool diploma, black people, white people, red, yellow, green, blue, and purple people! School is not the melting pot. The REAL WORLD is the melting pot, and when you'r ein school, you're not in the real world. If school children actually had more time to get out into their communities...if maybe the schools didn't offer extracurricular activities and the students had to participate in community activities ALL the time instead of maybe one or two when they had the time for it....well that would make things a lot different and probably a lot better as far as socialization goes. Public schoolers need this kind of healthy socialization.

EDIT*** Okay, while the whole "daily basis" thing isn't that important in my opinion as long as socializing happens often enough, you have to realize that many homeschoolers DO socialize on a daily basis, just not with people of all the same age and greade leve. I wrote an extensive list of activities, clubs, social events, and unstructured activity with friends that I take part in as my answer to the question RK answered, and with all of that on my plate, do you really think taht socialization is a rare occurance for me? And I'm relatively uninvolved compared to most of the 400 or so homeschoolers in our local homeschool group. I have homeschool friends who are so busy with social activity, dealing with other people on a day to day basis in a wide variety of settngs, I sometimes wonder how they manage that AND academics AND the college classes most of them are taking while still finding time to eat and sleep and bathe. They're as busy as the average public schooler (and I was in public school for 10 years) but the difference is their lives are balanced and they have time for socialization OUTSIDE of the classroom setting. And a lot of it at that.

As for differing from parents, well... I can speak for myself on this one. Lets see...

RELIGION

MOM: Christian (used to be catholic), goes to church every sunday for several hours, says she believes in creation AND evolution in some way.

ME: Athiest, had to go to weekly bible study when I was 7 and in public school, but never baught into it. Don't go to church with mom. Don't believe in Creation at all.

POLITICS

MOM: Says she's republican, but bases her opinions on some strange things, doesn't seem to put much thought into it.

ME Libertarian. I'm voting for the first time this year and while studying U.S. Government I did extensive research on the different parties and candidates so I'll be ready, and mom encouraged it.. Mom and I disagree on a lot as far as politics go, but that's okay.

RACE

MOM: Not racist, but due to upbringing she'll sometimes use words that come across as racist or make generalizations.

ME: Not at all racist. I correct mom when she says something that might come across wrong and she always thanks me for it. I don't see color when choosing friends.

DISABILITY

MOM: Mom is kind of stuck in a gray area, having raised a child with a disability. She believes we should be given equal opportunities but while she often shows disapproval of me using a cane and alternative methods (she tried to raise me like I was sighted, and when I started using blindness skills more frequently it was hard for her) she tends to baby and feel sorry for a lot of my disabled friends when they neither need nor deserve it.

ME: I believe the disabled should be treated like everyone else. I believe we should be accomodated so that the playing field is even (i.e. giving a disabled student the equipment and time they need to complete a homework assignment) but we SHOULD NOT be babied, pittied, or have life made easier for us than for anyone else (i.e. being excused from the above mentioned homework assignment altogether for no justifiable reason other than being disabled).

DRUGS

Mom and I are both opposed to drugs, but I believe that certain naturally occuring substances that can be proven to be non-addictive should be legalized, or at least researched.

Mom and I are very different. If you want to use school clique terms, she's a prep and I'm a nerd (and proud of it!), and so we tend to disagree on a lot of things when she has a more superficial view of something. We dress differently and sometimes argue about clothing styles (she honestly dresses like more of a college student and thinks more about what looks good where as I think more about what feels good and makes me feel good). We don't always agree on what academic routs to take (I wanted to do bottany in the beginning of this year, but she wanted me to do anatomy. We finally settled on chemistry) But despite differences, we agree on a lot as well. We even like the same kind of music, but that was more because of my boyfriend than because of her.

As for time spent away from the family, I get a lot of it. I travel a lot, and at this age it's mostly alone. I go to conventions, historical landmarks, camps, seminars, I've even traveled to four different countries for an entire month without my family.

And I know from experience that I'm not a rare case. There is NOTHING wrong with a tight family bond, and any public schooler who tells you it's unhealthy to spend a lot of time with your family is a bit sick in their own head in my opinion. I hope that when I have children, I can have a close bond with them. My mom and I are so close (again, despite differences) that we can talk about things as "awkward" and personal as sex, birth control, my relationship with y boyfriend, and a lot of other things that many public schoolers I'm friends with say they'd NEVER be able to talk to their parents about (s

It was a ridiculous comment. First of all, there's no guarantee that going to public school is going to have you in contact with all those people. Second, there's no reason to have that kind of contact on a daily basis. Third, if my kids went to school, they'd be going to a French Catholic school, where all the kids are pretty much, well French Catholics. We're not just talking same race, here, we're talking entirely same ethnic and religious group. Do the French Catholics I know who have grown up in that system have problems interacting with non-Catholics? No. With other ethnic groups? No. With other races? No. An argument like that is pseudo-psychological. Although more to the point is that it's accusing homeschoolers of living a lifestyle that many public schoolers live.

As for wmayers comment (this is not necessarily a direct response--this is more for everybody else reading), yes, there are people who restrict their kids contact; I still don't see how that's any different from people sending their kids to a Christian school. There are undoubtedly Christian schools where every kid is white and from a well-off family and they don't learn about evolution. How is it any different? And the argument about "daily interaction with other races" is just as pseudo-psychological as RK's. THERE IS NO PSYCHOLOGICAL NOR SOCIOLOGICAL REASON TO INTERACT WITH DIVERSITY ON A DAILY BASIS FOR 180 DAYS OUT OF 13 YEARS OF LIFE. So many people do not seem to get this. Why in the world would a white child have to spend all that time with a black child in his class in order to be able to know how to interact with other races? Do you think people are naturally racist and they need all that time to overcome it? GOOD GRIEF. It's only adults who make a big deal about races and religion and all that.

I would also suggest that people try to refrain from making such blanket statements as "All of the home schoolers in my county here in central New York are taught that Evolution is a lie, "--has a census been done on this? EVERY homeschooler in a particular county? Highly improbable.

Social interaction with children is important, although you raise a good point in saying," Real life is interacting with people of all AGES and backgrounds, not just those from your town within the same 1-2 years of age". Public school is certainly not the best option when it comes to schooling. Children that attend public school consistently score worse on standardized test than children that are home schooled.

I suppose when a child is home schooled social interaction play a huge part in making the decision. Will my child become a social outcast should I home school them. However, education is more important then social well being. Furthermore, social interaction can come later in life. I have a friend that home schooled both her children. Now each of them is attending an Ivy league school. Bothe socialize just fine.

I am not sure who Rk is, although I imagine this person has an agenda of their own.

Of course he likes you. He is just making you feel confused because he's not sure about his feelings either!!! Trust me, that happened to me with my current boyfriend: he always stared at me and now i'm 16 and we are expecting our first child( a girl named Connie, btw). Anyway, my piece of advice is wait for a while, if nothing happens then you better go and face him or give up, but if he doesn't do anything start looking for something else.And remember: YOU ARE TOO GOOD FOR HIM AND HE CAN'T MAKE YOU FEEL SAD! I'm not sure if these is the answer you've been looking for but it's the best i can give:) So i hope it helps and PLEASE don't get pregnant because that happened to me and although i love the baby i know i'm not ready yet:S XOXO Carrie

RK obviously believes the no socialization myth. He seems to think we lock our kids up in the closet all day and never let them see the light of day. That is laughable. We are always doing something social with them. He assumes that they are only around those of the same religion and race. Our girl scout group has a couple of black girls and a Jewish girl. I guess he didn't think about the fact that our kids would be involved in any outside activities.

wmayers9 believes the same thing. He also thinks that Christians are so closed minded that we are to dumb to teach both Evolution and Intelligent Design. Luckily enough for us we don't have to look to hard to find text books that teach both sides. Apologia is wonderful for that!

So many people assume so much about home schoolers. Unfortunately with out the facts they are willing to live blind. People get the facts before you assume anything about Home schoolers. We deserve the benefit of the doubt to be able to prove ourselves. After all were Abe Lincoln's parents concerned about his "social skills"? What about all of those who came before public school? Thomas Edison, Ben Franklin, Einstein? None of them were forced into a public indoctrination camp and look at their lives! We will remember them throughout history.

Who says that public schoolers don't interact with all ages and backgrounds and people not from their own town?

Everyone talks about how Non-homeschoolers talk about myths, and make broad assumptions, and acusations.

But seriously. I think homeschool people here are just as bad as making those "Assumptions, and accusations" as people against homeschool.

I see your point and agree with you to a cartain extent.

I find it funny that I always hear the argument like you said of "Real life is interacting with people of all AGES and backgrounds, not just those from your town within the same 1-2 years of age."

And saying that kids in PS only get to interact with people their age, and it's a controlled socialization.

Let's leave the social part out for a second. Don't you think that seeing people (Doesn't matter the age) and dealing, and working with people (Other than your family) on a regular basis is a good way to build the structure of working with people?

But I think it's unhealthy when a teenager is around the parents (Family) all the time (Even if you aren't around them after their done with school work). I think it's one big part of growing up is keeping things from you parents. I mean my God, when I think back on it, if I would have been homeschooled all my life, I can't even imagine how screwed up I would be. If I didn't have school to get away from my family when I was younger, I would have killed myself! A child needs to grow on their own, not grow the way the parents want.

I'd like to know how much the kids who are homeschooled vary from their parents, political, religious, philosophical views, and in basic views of every day life.

I would imagine not that much. Because what and how do the kids have to stray from that? They have freedom to have all kinds of sociliazation, yes they do.

Again, I'm not saying all homeschoolers are like that. I've been lucky to have bascially been able to educate myself, and to form my own opinions about life.

But when you're homeschooled, do you really get the freedom of not only academics? Not only socialization? Etc.

Do you really? One may think so, but I agree with RK's answer in that question where you got it from. About parents and homeschoolers being in denial, Etc.

I just think homeschooling families are either just choosing to ignore? Convincing themselves otherwise (Meaning the cases the always present about socialization, Etc.)?

But that's just my view of it, and from not only watching and examining my life, but more importantly from watching other homeschoolers I know and examining their lives.

To answer the original comment about homeschoolers missing out on a diversity of opinions - Why would I want my child to develop their world view or philosophy based on the opinions of other children? It is by teaching our children the thoughts of the great minds through the ages that they can be exposed to great truths and thus have a foundation for understanding others. Opinions are just that - subjective, emotion based, biased and usually parroted from a TV show. I would much rather my child read the words of Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela to understand racism, or Plato and Socrates to understand philosophies than listen to the opinion of another child who's just spouting something they heard on The Maury Povich show.

As to diversity, anyone who has spent a few minutes in a modern high school will tell you diversity is limited to a few cliques, and if you don't fit in to one of them, you are targeted for all kinds of peer pressure and bullying. Absolutely no correlation to the real world, so how is that teaching them anything positive?

There seems to be an underlying assumption that public high school is a bastion of great thinking, and free and open discourse on the important questions of life. High school is about trying to survive long enough to pass a state mandated test so you can get out.

I totally agree with you. School is not the best place for experiencing diversity. I think some people have bought into the socialization myth.

Here's some info on homeschooling and socialization:

http://www.successful-homeschooling.com/homeschool...

I totally agree. Our school district is 99% white and only has an 8% "free lunch" rate. It's a suburban, villiage school. Contrast that to our city's district (we're right on the district border) which is 57% black and inner-city, with an 85% free lunch rate. My HS'ed child would go to the first district - not too different than our family. My DD who's in public school, is bussed to the city district for special ed services our district doesn't have. The graduation rate is 42% in the city district and 99+% in our suburban district.

Now, contrast that with my HS'ed son's activities. For indoor and outdoor track and cross country, the majority of the kids are from the city schools. So he practices with, and competes against, kids from age 5-18 from all colors. Then his scout troop is made up of kids from our district, so everyone is white and in the same economic class as us.

But then he also goes to homeschool co-op where there are children from a low economic class, all the way up to kids whose parents are medical doctors and live in the $500,000+ homes. There is a HUGE variety of religions from pagan to very, very conservative Christian denominations.

On top of that, my DS volunteers for missionaries in Asia, who are exposed to the GLOBAL poverty. He gets in-depth knowledge of the culture in their country. If we could afford it, we'd make a trip over there for the ultimate HS field trip.

If RK wants to see some opinions fly, come to our HS co-op! There are MANY opinions from everything from how to deliver your baby, to which college kids should attend, and everything in-between. No one has to be "PC" about it, or worry that the ACLU will come in and shut down the free speech (as in the public schools).

Sooo, my son gets MORE variety from HS'ing than he would in PS. This is true time and again in our area, and most likely in all areas with HS'ers.

EDITED TO ADD for "wmayers99":

Just to let you know, my son has been given *both* sides of the evolution debate. While we are Christian, we use a secular, evolution-based, curriculum. You cannot over-generalize like you did. In addition to the curriculum, he's been given access to creation science materials and has been allowed *on his own*, at the ages of 8-10, to decide for himself. He's more passionate about his view then we are as parents, because he wasn't spoon-fed the information on either side. He was given the opportunity to think critically for himself. That is one of our greatest joys in HS'ing him.

You and RK both have valid points. A great many home schoolers restrict their pupil's interactions with certain people and emphasize denial of certain views regarding the world that are commonly held by many, many others.

One area in which this is very common is in the study of the sciences. All of the home schoolers in my county here in central New York are taught that Evolution is a lie, when it actually is the underpinning of all modern science, especially the life sciences. They're told instead that "God did it" with regards to the almost infinite variety in nature, and are not taught critical thinking and reasoning skills that would allow them to adequately evaluate such claims. That's usually because those who would teach them also lack those skills.

As you point out, real life is interacting with people of all backgrounds and ages, but you're ignoring the fact that most home schoolers are indeed segregated from certain others. Does your child interact on a daily basis with people of another race? How about Muslim children? How about gay people?

I find that in many areas, home-schooled kids are well ahead of their public school contemporaries. However, I must admit that I am not in favor of state support of home schooling, because it is far too inconsistent for my liking. I also recognize that others have differing opinions, so no rant-back, if you please.