Are you considered being a Jew if you call yourself a Messianic Jew?

Let me be really clear: “Messianic Jews”, “Jews for Jesus”, etc., are **not** Jewish. Period. They are Christians, many of whom, under false pretenses, aggressively seek to convert Jews and descendants of intermarriage to Christianity in a way that many of us find invasive, disrespectful, and anti-Semitic.

Before I even get to what Jewish law says about these impostors, consider this: not only does every Jewish organization completely reject them as Jewish, but so do a fair number of Christian groups, for example:

http://www.angelfire.com/la/jlush/dangersHRM.html

http://www.bethelministries.com/MESSIANIC_JEWS.htm

http://www.half-jewish.net/messianicjews.html

If no Jew thinks that you’re Jewish, and even some Christians don’t, then how can you possibly think that you are? And if one thinks that this rejection is a recent phenomenon, think again! Even St. Ignatius, of the 2nd century, felt the same way! In his Epistle to the Magnesians he wrote:

Never allow yourselves to be led astray by false teachings and antiquated and useless fables. Nothing of any use can be got from them. If we are still living in the practice of Judaism, it is an admission that we have failed to receive the gift of grace…To profess Jesus Christ while continuing to follow Jewish customs ***is an absurdity***…[L]et us learn to live like Christians. To profess any other name but that is to be lost to God…For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism.”

And now for what **we** say:

Most Jewish scholars agree that you cannot convert away from Judaism (there are a minority who say you can convert away). However, this by no means implies that a Jew who joins another religion has the same standing as a Jew who has remained Jewish. A Jew who practices another religion, whether it be Christianity (in any of its forms, including Messianic "Judaism"), Islam or anything else, is known as an "apostate." An apostate is someone who has removed themselves from the Jewish people by joining another faith. The apostate cannot be buried in a Jewish cemetery. Nor can the apostate be counted for a minyan, the minimum of ten adult Jews (or adult Jewish men, depending on one's denomination) needed for saying certain prayers. For nearly all practical purposes, they have the same status in the Jewish community as non-Jews. The only difference is that they do not have to undergo a full conversion to rejoin the Jewish community, though there is a process known as "Teshuvah" that they must go through to come back to the Jewish community with full Jewish status.

So, once we delve into Jewish law we see that a Jew who joins another religion, though still Jewish, has ostensibly the status of a non-Jew and is no longer able to participate as a full member of the Jewish community. The apostate has the weakest of all grasps to their Jewish identity, they are Jewish by birth but otherwise have no position in the Jewish community.

This then brings us to a discussion on the difference between "doing Jewish" and "being Jewish." By "doing Jewish", I am referring to someone who is actually practicing Jewish beliefs and laws. By "being Jewish", I mean someone who has been born Jewish. Now, there are many people who are born Jewish but are not practicing Judaism. For instance, if a Jewish person murders a family, the Jewish person may be "born Jewish" but certainly was not "doing Jewish" as murder is a violation of the Ten Commandments.

Similarly, we can see examples of this in the Jewish Bible. The prime example of this would be the Jews who worshipped the Golden Calf at Mount Sinai. These individuals were unquestionably Jewish by their birth, thus we can argue that they were "being Jewish." However, were they "doing Jewish?" The Bible is quite clear that these individuals, though born Jewish, were not practicing Judaism. The worship of the Golden Calf, though it was a monotheistic form of worship, was clearly a violation of the Biblical law regarding the making of idols. Thus, they were not "doing Jewish." Similarly, in the Prophets we see countless reprimands of people who were undeniably Jewish by birth, but had entered into apostasy by worshipping gods such as Baal and Ashtoret. They were not "doing Jewish" but "doing pagan" and had violated the very underpinning of Judaism. That they were "being Jewish" by their birth was clearly not sufficient. One must also "do Jewish" in their actions.

Along the same lines, many of Jesus' original followers were unquestionably born Jewish. However, by adopting non-Jewish beliefs, such as thinking that Jesus was a god (a violation of several places in the Jewish Bible, Numbers 23:19 and Hoshea 11:9 provide a few examples of this), were no longer "doing Jewish." The same is true for individuals in the Messianic movement today. The Messianic movement was created by Christianity, and its beliefs and values reflect Christianity. By practicing Messianic "Judaism", the individual who was "born Jewish" is no longer "doing Jewish." They have removed themselves from the Jewish community by their practice and beliefs. Unfortunately, too few of these individuals have an understanding of the difference between "being Jewish" and "doing Jewish", mistakenly believing that they can both believe in Jesus and still have the same status in Jewish community as before. They not only have lost status, but also have lost the practice of Judaism. As has been pointed out in the Talmud, the emphasis for us is on the action, the "doing Jewish.

This is taken from the reference section of this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Jesus

1. "There is virtual unanimity across all denominations [of Judaism] that Jews for Jesus are not Jewish." (Kaplan, Dana Evan. The Cambridge Companion to American Judaism, Cambridge University Press, Aug 15, 2005, pp. 139-140).

2. "For most American Jews, it is acceptable to blend some degree of foreign spiritual elements with Judaism. The one exception is Christianity, which is perceived to be incompatible with any form of Jewishness. Jews for Jesus and other Messianic Jewish groups are thus seen as antithetical to Judaism and are completely rejected by the majority of Jews". (Kaplan, Dana Evan. The Cambridge Companion to American Judaism, Cambridge University Press, Aug 15, 2005, p. 9).

3. Jewish groups:

o "To make the record clear, Jews for Jesus is a Christian missionary organization – period." Jews for Jesus: Jewish or Christian? You Decide, Jews for Judaism website, retrieved September 11, 2006.

o "Messianic Jewish organizations, such as Jews for Jesus, often refer to their faith as fulfilled Judaism, in that they believe Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies. Although Messianic Judaism claims to be Jewish, and many adherents observe Jewish holidays, most Jews regard Messianic Judaism as deceptive at best, fraudulent at worst. They charge that Messianic Judaism is actually Christianity presenting itself as Judaism." (Balmer, Randall. Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism, Baylor University Press, Nov 2004, p. 448).

No, you are not considered a Jew by other Jews if you call yourself "messianic". This means you're Christian and have renounced Judaism as defined by the Jewish people. You may be considered a Jew by other Christians, but Christians do not get to define who Jews are any more than we Jews get to decide who is a Christian.

Obviously, the Torah does not mention Jesus or the notion of a messiah at all. The Tanakh, derisively referred to as the "old testament" in Christian triumphalism, in which it is superceded by the "new testament", contains the messianic prophecies. As noted above and regularly here by paperback writer, those prophecies - according to the tradition of the people who wrote the book - predict a messiah nothing like Jesus. Who, in turn, did not fulfill those prophecies according to Jewish belief. I'll let others fill you in on the details. The main prophecy I know, for messianic times, is that there will be peace on earth when the messiah comes, and with the dozens of wars going on now, I can look out my window or turn on my TV and know the messiah has yet to arrive.

By Messianic "Jews", yes. By Christians, yes. By Jews, NO! If anything, they are considered apostate Jews.

I mean, would it be okay if I, as a Jew, went ahead and decided that only Catholicism was true Christianity. Wouldn't you think I was being very presumptuous if I said that? That's how we feel when people who are not Jewish, decide what is part of our religion and what isn't. Today is Shabbos so many Jews are not here to answer this question, but if they were, they would all tell you the same thing. We, as Jews, get to interpret our laws and our Tanakh for Judaism.

It WON'T say in the Torah because Jesus was a nice Jewish man who TAUGHT Torah; the Torah was written before Jesus came on the scene. As for the Moshiach, he did not fulfill all the prophecies; therefore he is not our Moshiach.

BTW - Jews 4 Jesus was started by a Baptist minister and the express purpose of the group is to convert Jews to Christianity. The agenda is on their website.

a messianic Jew is NOT Jewish but an apostate & Christian.One can't be both..

Jesus was never mentioned in the Torah/Tanach..Jews don't believe in human sacrifice or that anyone can be 'saved' by a so called sacrifice.. All Jews like everyone else are held responsible for their own actions..Not by the xtians belief in original sin..

Jesus didn't fufill even one prophesy contrary to the xtians belief..Your so called OT was misinterpreted & sometimes I think deliberately! If you read the Tankah that would be the end of your religion.. Not knocking all Christians,some are good tho not the majority..

As for Jesus being a nice guy,unsure.He was Jewish to the end.If his words were distorted perhaps..If not he was either delusional or one of the many false prophets.

Tami,whf gives you the gall to define Judaism??? Even 1 of the verses in Matthew say Jesus isn't divine!!!

Kol Hakavod & Shalom

haha! judaism is an after christ religion?! i don't think the person who said this really understands what they are saying. the citeria for the moshiach where laid out before jesus was born. in order for jesus to be the moshiach of the jewish people he would have had to accomplish all the citeria before he died. the whole world would have to acknowledge him as as moshiach and look to him for guidance. all will know g-d. not even these two have been completed. also, out of the three abrahamic religion christianity is the furthest from what even jesus himself practice. christianity developed in the roman and greek world where it originated. its was engineered by the romans and greeks into something that was completely different from the way the israelites worshipped. i bet when the true moshiach of the jewish people comes and all the dead have risen that jesus will feel more comfortable with judaism as it is today than christianity. he would even feel more comfort with islam than christianity.

also, all jews are messianic. we just don't believe that the moshiach has come, we await his arrival. the torah simply doesn't say that jesus was not mochiach because no where in the torah is jesus or the moshiach mentioned. the idea of the moshiach comes from the book of the prophets or nevi'im which along with the torah and ketuvim form the tanakh, the hebrew bible or the "old testment." having said that if you believe that jesus is messiah than you are christian. the christian messiah has already come while the jewish moshiach has yet to come. simple if you believe the moshiach has come you are not jew whether your messiah be jesus or sabbati zevi.

how is jesus related to king david throught solomon? through mary? in judaism "jewishness" is passed through the mother to child, so no doubt that jesus was jewish. however, membership into the tribes is inherited patrilineally from father to son. who was jesus father? g-d? and what tribe was he from? g-d does have a tribe, he is the god of all tribes of yisraol. this besides the fact that the way in which g-d acts in the "new testment" is more like zesus than the g-d of the jewish people.

A verse for those Judaism/Jews who are yelling at Jews4Jesus &/or Messianic Jews, because they believe they are Jews...

Matthew5:11-12.

Jesus speaking...

11. Blessed are ye when others shall revile you & persecute you & shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake (Jesus sake).

12. Rejoice & be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets who were before you.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTp...

You are persecuting Christians by false accusation.

They are Christians & they are also Jews!

Jesus said that when you persecute those his brothers, sisters & mothers (who do the will of His Father), you're persecuting Him (Jesus). Jesus told Saul that when he persecuted the Jewish Church of Christ & Christians, Saul was persecuting Jesus. And now Saul (an ex-Jewish Pharasee) is now Paul (humble Jewish follower of Yeshua Messiah)

The mosiach was to bring peace a messianic age during his lifetime. This isn't peace!

For many more ways in which Jesus didn't fulfill the list, see

www.whatjewsbelieve.org

This quesiton gets asked daily. So search y!a questions for lots of answers. Since you are asking on Shabbat there's very few Jews around, so you won't get legitmate answers from Jews. (...Or was that the point with the timing? Plenty ask it to be manipulative that way.)

Jesus is NOTHING in Jewish religion, just a nice guy who may or may not have lived. Not prophet, not a rabbi. The mosiach will be human, not a God-man.

Jewish umbrella organizations do not consider Messianic Christians, Jewish --- further more they sponser programs to counter their manipulative high pressure sales efforts to convert Jews -- which were the reason they picked "jewish" or "hebrew" as part of their name in the first place.

-----

Tami-

is neglecting of a basic rule of civility. Judaism and Jews are a recognizable name. If someone comes along & chooses to use it because "it's more theirs".... that's stepping on someone else's toes. You have to wonder why the need to fight so hard to take over someone else's name instead of inventing a new one? It's because the underlying goal -- is to steal Jews & annilate Judaism's validity.

In other words it's the same christrian bigotry it's always been.

I don't think Jews consider you a Jew if you're a Messianic Jew.

"Messianic Judaism," or "Jews4Jesus" is an atrocity, to put it mildly. I have studied very little of Judaism, because it is such a rich and complex religion/spirituality that it would take a lifetime of study to really understand it, IMO.

The Messianics and the J4J's, though, adopt their flagrantly dishonest terminology and their approach as a way of depriving Jews of their cultural and religious identity. Sound harsh? I hope so, because it's meant to sound harsh. What other reason could a group of people have for trying to redefine Judaism? What other reason could someone on this very post have for saying that Christians are more Jewish than Jews? What other reason could Christians have for trying to turn Jews away from their own culture and beliefs?

If I tried to redefine Christianity to be a sect of Buddhism by saying that Jesus taught karma (do unto others as you would have them do unto you), and rebirth (appearing in heaven or hell after death), wouldn't Christians go out of their way to deny this? Would they spare any effort at correcting the misinformation I present about Christianity? Of course not!

So how can Christians blame Jews for correcting something that frankly is meant to harm Jews?

Christians who call themselves 'messianic jews' are still CHRISTIANS.

A person who practises Christianity is not Jewish, and cannot be Jewish.

Just as a person practising Judaism, cannot be a Muslim.

The Torah makes it clear that the Jewish messiah is a NORMAL, MORTAL MAN. He lives and then he dies. There is no 'second coming' in Judaism. There is no 'virgin birth' in Judaism. End of.

Anyone who wants to, can convert to Judaism, and is welcome.

But the word 'Jewish' DOES have an OBJECTIVE DEFINITION. It refers to someone who is born to a Jewish woman OR someone who converts to Judaism.

You are welcome to have Jesus as your messiah - but what you can't do is totally REdefine Judaism to include that belief as part OF Judaism. It isn't, and it never will be.

TAMI

And who else BUT Jews would get to define Judaism???

Do you even realise how absurd your opening remark is?

The 'old testament' is not a Jewish scripture. It is a CHRISTIAN mistranslation OF a translation OF the Jewish Tanakh.

FLOBOT

How can you claim to be something when you KNOW that the word 'Jewish' HAS an objective definition?

If Judaism says that a certain set of beliefs is a violition, and if Judaism has always said, this, when who are YOU to come along five thousand years later and try and REdefine Judaism?

I am frankly appalled at your arrogance.

TO THE ASKER

Your username is 'superjew' BUT clearly, you are not Jewish. Kindly change your name, you are misrepresenting US, and you are lying.