Thoughtful religious question #7: I think that everyone can reach an agreement?

Before all you religious people cry foul, try turning off the religious part of your brain and focus on the logic here - then you'll get the point.

A good third premise to add would have been "all scientific evidence gathered from the Enlightenment up to the present day supports a world that is governed by the chaotic forces of nature, and does not support the existence of a creator god." This is a fact, whether you will admit that to yourselves or not...

The logic dictates that atheism is most certainly the logical worldview:

1) Evidence is required for claims to be considered truthfull;

2) There is no concrete scientific proof to show that god exists;

3) There is concrete scientific proof to show that the universe is the result of naturally occuring processes;

4) All claims suggesting that god is the origin of these processes are untestable and unprovable, and therefore cannot be seriously considered;

5) All scientific evidence contradicts the claims of religion and supports an atheist worldview;

Therefore:

6) Atheism is logically the most reasonable choice.

Atheists will admit that they could be wrong; all we ask is to see the evidence once it is found. Since none exists, we can feel pretty confident that we are right.

I disagree with just about everything you state. Something can be logical and still be completely wrong. With humans involved logic is seldom the course taken. Read a court transcript or watch a trial you'll quickly see logic is avoided at every turn. Occam's Razor is seldom the rule.

Your points also logically fail

1) Apparently the evidence for God has convinced billions. Where there is smoke there could be a fire. Something is going on there.

2) No evidence? Besides the believers mentioned in my first point there is also the historical records of all the major world religions. Also you have to evaluate the character of the major world religion's central figures.

All things being equal religious believers have happier, longer, and more fruitful lives than non-believers. Logically it is wiser to live a religious life and at the end you find out there is no god rather than to live a less full-filled life and then at the end find out you not only wasted this life but you also will be lost in the next.

The problem is, theoretical arguments cannot address questions about existence, since these are empirical matters. Theology is just as logical as any atheist argument, it just starts from premises we have no evidence to take as true. Thus, no matter how *valid* (internally consistent) they may be, they end up with conclusions nobody has any reason to take seriously, either.

Next, faith is not a sound epistemological tool, since it has lead to known false conclusions as well. For instance, faith in the interpretation of the Qur'an and Hadith by the radical Imams of the Taliban and other Muslim extremist sects leads to things like jet liners purposefully being flown into buildings. Anyone who bases a belief on religious faith automatically takes a position that says 9/11 was justified.

Reason fails to support theism. Faith fails to be a sound basis for belief period. Thus, the only way to look at theism is as a fallacy - argument from incredulity. I can't explain X, so God must have done it.

"There is more in heaven and earth than is dreamed of in your philosophy". Shakespeare got it right 400 years ago. The problem is that you're assuming that logic is the only way of connecting with the world. It isn't. It's an important way and is crucial in the dealings we have with each other that affect practical things. But if you've never experienced a sense of wonder at something - the night sky, the view from the top of a mountain, the birth of a child, Beethoven symphonies (whoops, my prejudices are showing), or whatever, then you are a sorry sort of human. And if you have never been in love or loved, then you have missed out on the key experience in life. These things aren't logical, but they are crucial, and provide meaning and purpose in our lives.

Religion comes from a different place in us than logic. I agree that it is hugely problematic when some people - fundamentalist, literalist, Christians et al - confuse rationality and logic with spiritual and such-like knowing, and try to insist that science is wrong because a deity created everything, bam. But this is a category error, not a failure of logic per se.

You might find the writings of Ken Wilber worth reading, particularly "Eye to Eye", and in that book particularly the first chapter, also entitled "Eye to Eye".

EDIT: ah, I think I'm beginning to see the problem here. free-nosejob writes "All scientific evidence contradicts the claims of religion and supports an atheist worldview". This statement starts from an assumption that all religion has claims to make about the realm of science. It is a tragic truth that in the USA, the numbers of people who seriously imagine that religion has explanations for things that are in the scientific domain is huge - something that isn't true in Europe. It is of course nonsense to imagine that the world operates by non-scientific, supernatural, means. But the majority of religious people in the world (well, I blooming well hope it's a majority anyway - it's an overwhelming majority of all I've ever known) see science as having its realm and religion as having a different arena. It's ONLY if you determinedly set a fundamentalist view of creation in opposition to a scientific view that atheism becomes the only logical position. But there is no particular logic to atheism if the religious approach is talking about something else - as it is for everyone I know. I have no opposition to atheism, my parents are atheists, it's a respectable position. I just happen to feel there is a bit more to life and I choose to put that spiritual sense into a Jewish context.

YES! Logic and common sense will win many disagreements. The problem is, both are a rarity in the world today. One must possess both for equal balance. Many would say the perfect balance would be education(intelligence) and common sense, but one can have intelligence, but no logical values, or logical values and no common sense. The best scenario would be to have all three, but this is a very extreme rarity.

Since reljgion, by this forum, has been declared illogical, common sense is a rarity and intelligence only adds to the confusion, we can only, still guess as to the existence of any true religion or "God".

The Christian Logic Train.

1. There is no evidence God does not exist, either. Therefore He could exist.

2. If God does exist, then there is a heaven.

3. If God is a Christian God, then the only way to heaven is as Jesus described; through Him.

4. As Jesus doesn't require material investment, then there is little actual wealth needed to enter Heaven.

5. Therefore, its quite logical to follow Jesus. Imagine if you're wrong - eternal damnation.

As for why Christian refuse to allow that they could be wrong. This point to the fundamental difference between religions and atheism. Religion is grounded in faith while atheism is grounded in scientific evidence. Understanding and accepting that is the key to the two groups getting along.

As to why Christians try to convince people to follow Jesus. Under our religion, Jesus directed his followers to take His word to the People so that others might be saved. This was out of love. So, its morally logical for Christians to try to bring you to Jesus. In other words, Christians are trying to do what is in their belief, the nicest possible thing for you. Amittedl, many Christian ry to brow beat others into belief, even thogh we know how that turns out (The Inquistion as an example).

Yes, Christian could be wrong. In admitting this I am no less a believer. I am simply realistic. What I see in the Atheists on here is the same trait I detest in most other believers. The desire to sway others from their own spiritual beliefs.

The fact is that a persons spiritual beliefs are a personal and private matter and should not be shoved down anyone elses throat. This would include opinions about the other persons belief system.

If you are talking religion, I cannot answer. If you are talking Christianity and Biblical truth, I can. Christianity is not a religion as some prefer to call it. It is a relationship with Christ, by giving Him control through His Holy Spirit.

Now there are two things to prove Christianity. The first I already mentioned and that is God's Holy Spirit dwelling inside an individual who makes Jesus the Lord and Master of his or her life, instead of making yourself be in control. When one has the Holy Spirit living in their life, there becomes no doubt that God exist.

The second thing to prove God is prophecy. The Bible is filled with fulfilled prophecies that have occurred or are occurring today or in the past several years. The one big prophecy is the return of Israel to her homeland. There are many Scriptures that reveal this one occurrence.

I doubt if an atheist will ever find these things out because most I have encountered have a closed mind and would certainly not invite Jesus Christ to be Lord of their lives as that would take away their own dominance over their own selves.

Many individuals have what amounts to solid evidence for the verity of their faith, in their lives. They have good reasons to believe as they do.

This includes Atheists.

I have my own set of experiences that cause me to believe as I do (pantheist). I tried some other religions and found no convincing evidence for them in my life, but that does not mean that someone else may not have such evidence for them in their life.

The issues arise when people try to apply their own experience to others lives.

I look at it like this...I was raised in a big family I have a sister 15 years older than me. Over the years we realized we don't have the same parents...I mean, genetically yes, but in practice no. Her parents were younger with a different agenda and set of expectations than they were 15 years and five kids later with me. We truly grew up in a different family from one another.

I expect that religion is much the same way...people and cultures have wildly different experiences of Ultimate Reality, and they tell their take according to what is true for them. They have reasons to believe as they do, or to NOT believe, as they do.

I don't worry myself over something my mom said to my sister 10 years before I was born. I don't worry myself over what a group of people believed about the afterlife 4000 years ago on the Nile. I don't worry myself over a New Orleans housewife's chats with dead saints in 1997. I pay attention to how the Universe interacts with me.

Some people share stories that support what they believe, and why should I doubt that they had that experience? But I also feel that if a deity has power and authority and there is a good reason for them to contact me, they can and will...just like they've done with others.

So far, the best candidate for higher power seems to be the Universe, so here I am, a pantheist, with more evidence than I have time to sift through, that the Universe exists.

Disagree.

1. Someone here in R & S actually asked what God would do to California after what happened to Myanmar and China. Some days after the question was asked, it rained hail in California, and there were late lightning storms that struck it.

Ask and you shall be given, as the Bible says.

2. Do you have to see God? What if you saw that He occupies the whole space (except the things that you usually see)?

3.The only logical choice for the religious is to admit that their beliefs are personal. <<==It's the responsibility of the aware to let the others know of the truth. Otherwise, will be dealt with like you dealt with the information.

“Faith in Unseen”forms the basis of today’s science and electronics. The boundary of the universe is 13 billion light years away from earth. It keeps expanding at the speed of light. One light year is the distance travelled by light in one year. In 1 second light travels 300000Kilo meters. Sun light takes 8 minutes to reach earth from the time of emission. We cant even imagine 1 light year. We can only keep of adding 10 raised to so many powers using our super computers, but cant perceive as a human. When we don’t know the boundaries of our universe how can we say the location of the Creator? Similarly we have somany "Faiths| like Infinity, Photon, etc