How can you ever be sure?

I think a lot of it depends on your state, and how ethical your state is. There might be some folks here with state by state information about how ethical foster adoptions are in their states. I know Arizona's system is pretty shoddy, but that's because you have to go through an adoption agency, and the agencies like to really screw people over. It's not about the kids. In some states, the state gets a "bonus" for every child placed for adoption, and a lot of unethical stuff goes on around that practice. Do as much research as you can ahead of time (talk to others who have adopted through your state, and first parents who have lost children in your state, if possible).

Once you're already submitting your homestudy for children, ask questions. LOTS of them. You'll be able to get a pretty good sense of whether the state is on the up and up if they give you honest answers and don't pussyfoot around. And be honest. Let them know you're only interested in ethical situations that are truly in the best interests of the child, and that you want absolute proof that everything possible has been done to keep the child with his/her family (safely) prior to agreeing to adopt. If the caseworkers in your state are doing things ethically, they won't mind this one bit (they don't mind in Oregon...in fact, they corrected a few of the ideas I had going into it, making sure that I understood it wasn't about me, it was about the kids, and they could care less if I get what I want).

And, of course, if you have even the slightest inkling that something isn't right, back out, and let them know why. I have a friend who adopted five children from the state foster care system, and her #1 condition was that the children she adopted were available for a good reason, and that there were no better options for them. We have completely open records in Oregon (which means that not only do adoptees have full access to their records, but the state is required to give AP's every single sheet of paper on file for their children prior to placement...makes unethical practices a tad more difficult when you can't hide anything).

Good question.

First, CPS CAN come in and take children the same day. But, this is in cases where the child is (a) Injured or (b) in great danger. It does happen and it happens with police.

But in general, this is how the system works:

1) Calls come into CPS from everywhere.

2) The calls are triaged, such that the ones with the greatest possibility for harm to a child are taken and investigated within 24 hours.

3) The others calls are ranked by liklihood of harm to the child and investigated accordingly.

4) For cases where harm is not likely to be immediate or where there are not obvious signs, investiagtions by the social workers can take weeks because they talk to everyone in the child's lives; and they actually try and get the bio-parents help so the children are not taken.

5) When all else fails under this triage system, the children are removed.....

6) Children may also be removed if the bio-parents are not doing what they are supposed to do to improve the situation; if the abuser has not left the home; if the situations do not improve, etc.

In the majority of cases, the families are NOT new to CPS; because the workers have been investigating when the children are taken.

By the time TPR (termination of parental rights) happens, the workers have already looked for other family members that could take the children. So, by the time a child is "legally free" in the foster care system, there is NO other family member that is available or acceptable for adopting the child.

I think you have to be proactive with any foster child you have to be sure that they are not a victim of CPS and need another home. I make sure I ask questions of lots of people, read the court and medical files, go to all the court dates, do everything I can to know as much as I can about the first family, and push to get copies of everything. I want to be comfortable with the decision to foster adopt and be able to tell our little one as much as I can about her parents.

I have been watching the few kids I know in care and so far I haven't seen any children's rights terminated inappropriately, but have already seen several instances of children going back to their parents for a short time and the abuse/neglect continues, so they come back to foster care.

However, maybe reading the court file on your friends case will help you see more. Sometimes they give a different view than you have been led to believe. Maybe she is still dating the guy who has been bad with her kids, maybe she is doing drugs and kept having dirty test, or maybe she didn't listen to the judge or follow his orders. Or maybe she did everything right, had a bad attorney, bad judge, or just felt so guilty about things she did do that she gave up. The judges I have seen bend over backwards to make sure that the children are reunited with their parents, giving them chances over and over. I am sure they aren't all like that, but the more that you can ask, know, and see for yourself, the more confident you will be that the best intersts of the child were served.

I know there are kids in the foster system that shouldn't be. It drives me wild that while some children are taken for BS reasons, ie, a lack of services for parents, other children are languishing in environments saturated with abuse, neglect, drug abuse, violence and pain.

My advice? Go through the foster system and keep your eyes open. Get to know the child's parents and family, get a feel for them, try to see how the children interact with them. Listen to the kids when they tell you things. If something seems wrong, then it probably is.

Then be prepared to fight the system. Harass your case worker, pull your support worker into it, write letters to anyone who will listen.

There are so many kids in need, in so many ways. If you truly want to become a parent to them it's possible to do it in an ethical and moral way. I would say always listen to your instincts.

I don't like this question. It makes my head think too much!

As a previous foster parent, we knew the system and we knew the flaws in the system. There were children we saw who definitely could stay with their parents rather than be in foster care with the right support, but they still stayed in foster care, and we have seen children go home who we think should have stayed in foster care.

You have situation in some provinces/states, where they are family first, which is good in theory; however, in this case they are often not working in prevention and stability but rather in crisis. In this type of system I have seen them try to put families back together AFTER crisis, but rarely working in prevention.

So back to your question, how can I be sure? Well, we knew the problems, so we made sure to read the full social history. It was beyond clear from the social history that the children for sure had to be adopted and needed permanent parents in their lives. They are not allowed to see their first parents. I have also made attempts to meet the first mother but she cancelled our meeting.

So we have done what we could, but in the end, we always wonder if we had a system that was more preventative supportive in nature rather then crisis driven, perhaps we could see a change in how many even come up for adoption through foster care.

The reason I don't like to think about this question, because my biggest fear is that deep down if my children would have been better off in their first family if the abuse/neglect had subsided earlier. I know we are not to blame, but what if the system failed this family? Well that we will never know, so I really don't like to think about it. It makes me sad. I am glad you asked it, but it still makes me sad.

AHEM! First off.. Hey Ashley? shut up already.

Ok rant ended.

I will assume you mean me when you say BS and foster care. And YES it was a BS reason. I was offered plenty of help until his foster parents announced they would like to adopt him then, surprise surprise, all the help stopped. Even though SS destroyed my family and stole my child I am still an avid supporter of foster care adoptions. The trick is to buck the system a bit and DEMAND some form of contact with the natural family. Be it emails, phone calls or unmonitored meetings within the safety of the social worker's office. You will never know a person's situation until you have talked to them first hand. I could see the guilt on their faces when I met them. They were told outright lies about me and my situation and until they heard my story from my mouth they had nothing else to go on. They didn't even know his middle name or that he was baptized in my family church. Hell they didn't even know he was born prematurely or that he was on a sleep apnea monitor until he was 15 months. They thought his asthma was from me smoking in the house, that was utter BS! Another thing I would suggest is not asking to adopt a foster child until they are legally free to be adopted. Social workers will halt any support to the natural family as soon as you do and it is not fair. They get kick backs for each adoption they facilitate and nothing for reunification within the natural family. Just some food for thought.

I think you are doing exactly what you need to do to be 99.99% sure. You are making a sincere effort to educate yourself about the pitfalls of adoption from the point of view of all parties involved. It is very admirable as many people involved in adoption just run away from reality and continue to stick their heads in the sand.

No one is ever 100% sure about anything when it comes to issues with lots of gray area like adoption and family. I agree with Carnie on this. In 99.99% of the cases, TPR through the social services does not happen overnight. In fact, I think that deadbeat parents are given too many chances. (Soapbox statement - Anyone who hurts a child should do mandatory jail time, and then get one and only one chance to clean up their parenting act.)

Lori - That is so sick. I hope it is the .01% of the cases. If not, I take back everything I wrote here except that I have huge respect for any adoptive parent who educates him/herself about adoption before he/she adopts.

Good question, hard to answer. I have heard that most times CPS does not swoop in but you and I both know that some of the particular problems they deem acceptable are bogus accusations to begin with.

I know of a mother who needed 2 more weeks to secure the last leg of her to do list. It was securing a home. She had to wait for the other tenants to move out and clean the place up. Her rights were terminated and she never saw her children again. She died a few months ago. She was not the reason the children were removed.

Maybe the reason was BS, but think of it this way, would you rather social services overreact and take a child than underreact and have a child end up abused because no one did anything?

The reason probably wasn't as BS as you think. I'm sure it was a valid reason, but there were circumstances that were not typical. Maybe your friend should have gotten the child back, but didn't because they can't make exceptions even though her circumstances were different.

One way you can be sure is when you look into that child's eyes and see all the hurt and confusion melt just a little when they know you want to take them home and love them forever.

Im never sure