Why do Christians bring up God in rational debates, and then complain if others tell them "God isn't real"?

Here is another fallacy often opined on this forum:

You wrote: "If you're against abortion or gay marriage, and you give ten reasons for your stance and one of those reasons is "because God says so and God is always right", the only two possible answers are "I agree because God is real" or "God might not be real, you realize that, right?"

NO there is another possible response: "I believe in God and He is NOT against good, love, compassion, and reason. Therefore He is NOT against aborting an embryo (which is NOT a person) in order to preserve the life of the mother. (She ALSO has right a right to life). Furthermore a loving committed same-sex union is JUST that and thus God is NOT opposed to that either.

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And to paraphrase CASSIE L: It saddens me when people use ignorance and irrationality to persue actions which bring real harm to othwers, whether wittingly or unwittenly. And too many times this is done by "believers in a God" who express beliefs which are capricious, calous, uncaring of other's rights, and are self contradictory.

I am NOT saying that all religious belief is bad (or even wrong) just that many times a person brings great harm to another because their LOVING actions are based on untruth and irrational concepts of virtue and justice.

To give a perfect example: All you out there need to watch a movie "Prayers for Bobby" on ch 108 Lifetime tonight. It is about a mother whose irrational concepts of religion pushed her gay son to suicide.

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And SHAMGUAR: You stated: "If you say God doesn't exist then I will use practical argument to show you why homosexuality . . . is wrong."

I CHALLANGE YOU RIGHT NOW.

SORRY but what you say here is NOT possible. There are NO reasonable and factual arguments which can show that homosexuality is "wrong" because:

1) Homosexuality exists and the existence of something, NOT involving a person's will, is NOT an issue even open to moral judgment.

2) Using the very word "wrong" involves a MORAL judgment. And NO LEGITIMATE MORAL JUDGMENT CAN BE MADE concerning any purely physical activity when "religious belief" is not used as a determining factor. It simply CAN NOT BE DONE. This is the fallacy using the traditional Natural Law methodology concerning facitity-act models for determining moral issues. One MUST know the circumstances and the motivations. (To give a trite example, one may say that killing is always wrong. However there IS such a thing as JUST killing). Every ethical judgment must necessarily be nuanced.

Furthermore, just saying even "homosexual activity" is wrong is much too broad a topic to either condemn or condone out of hand. This too is not a reasonable method of determining ethical morality.

Finally I will assert that a loving committed self-sacrificing same sex relationship is morally good. And I defy you to explain just how -- without using "religious dogma or so-called revealed truth" that this is morally wrong!

If you ask a question regarding such topics as gay marriage and abortion in hopes of a debate, you're going to have people who bring up God as a reason against it. I'm a very devout Christian, and as such I disagree with gay marriage and abortion. That being my view, I would debate those topics as such since it's what I believe in, just as an atheist doesn't believe in a supreme being. If you believe in something with all your heart, wouldn't you also bring it into the equation whether or not others believe it? If you ask any Christian, their belief in God stems from their experience in Christ, which doesn't make sense to non-believers who might not have had that experience. Believe me, I used to think the same way you do, and I used to hate those Christians who always brought up God and thought it was "rational". Yet it's just a different from of rationality than what you might have expected.

Imagine if we were talking about aliens. Many people believe they exist, but some don't believe that it's possible (whether from a Christian viewpoint or not). You ask the question "Do aliens exist?" and now these two groups debate it. You're going to have that person who believes they've seen a UFO or that they have been abducted. They are the enthusiasts, the ones who are going to bring it up immediately and say that their experience is real even though you haven't experienced it for yourself. Wouldn't they have the right to be angry when the opposing team tells them that they are delusional because aliens don't exist?

Also, you need to understand part of Christianity that is overlooked by many atheists and other religions. The Bible wants us to defend our Faith.... and to spread it. If it's what we truly believe, it's what we are going to do. One thing that most people can agree on is acceptance of others beliefs. As an atheist should understand, they don't have beliefs to defend, and rather just a lack of belief. So when a Christian says "I don't agree with gay marriage because the Bible says marriage is between a man and a woman." it stems directly from their source of belief. That is their answer to gay marriage, whereas an atheist lack of belief says "The Bible is false and God does not exist so therefore everything that the Christian says is irrational."

Yet if the answer had been "I don't agree with gay marriage because, as a gay man, I wouldn't want to intentionally be hindered from my sexual desires for other men because of a relationship that might end soon." the opposition would have said "Oh, well that's you and that's okay for you, but not what the rest of us want."

I do think that those would be accurate responses to both answers, which only proves the point that Christians are attacked for their beliefs when others don't believe them as well. Yet if you don't want to hear a differing opinion or belief on a matter, what's the point in asking it in the first place?

I hope this wasn't too long and I hope I didn't sound like I was attacking atheism. I'm simply putting my two cents where I deemed it necessary.

I figure I miss at least 99% of all questions, most I do see not looked at because of objectionable material indicating absurdity. It's an impossible feat to be here 24/7, so right off the bat I've missed probably 21/24 (87%). But now I've seen it. I married a Southern Baptist girl who, though she was very moral, neither of us knew enough to fill out a page of beliefs. During a year long period (expanded to a second year due to popularity) our church held a seminar called "World Religions". Every other week we either had a live minister of some religion deliver his/her best case for their belief, or we watched a video/listened to a tape sent from some religious headquarters. The alternate weeks were spent comparing Christianity, sometimes with the help of a college professor or other scholar or reasonably qualified Christian to lead in the comparisons. Interestingly, quite a number of the guest speakers joined our study. We sure learned a lot about the world and other cultures! And many got a rare view of Christianity, including the two of us. So it was that my decision to remain a Christian (though at the time I wasn't really one) and not a Baptist soon afterward, is based on the Bible, examining doctrines of many major Christian denominations, including all the Protestants, and meeting up with Jesus when I finally called on Him to save me. All of it, even learning about major world religions, strengthened us into a very personal relationship with the Lord, and today we know we chose wisely. BTW, our last year there they began a "World Witness for Christ" study for those who attended the first course, without which I might not have started open public witnessing to people of other religions for several more decades. In answer to your question I would guess most don't get such opportunities, going through life ignorant of other beliefs, and too ignorant of their own. However, it seems to me most who remain active with the Church are somewhat satisfied with Jesus but have a very weak basic doctrinal knowledge, not showing interest in knowing anything of beliefs held in the nearest other Christian denomination. If what you have works for you, why try something else? When someone affirms they know Jesus, that's good enough for me, but I'll expect to see the fruit bud and remain.

I think it's because we live in a society with no consensus on anything. However, our country is mostly Christian, which doesn't mean the majority is always right, but to a Christian maybe it does, because we are supposed to be living in a democratic society where the majority rules, so if any consensus exist at all, it might as well be Christianity. Science with it's overly rational take on everything doesn't allow for even what could be trans-rational and intuitive insights, since science operates by getting govt funding and can't appear to be other than a dominating rational force to be trusted.

Science and rational thought is oppressive and deserves to be put in it's place underneath trans-rational and intuitive intelligence that includes all of life and not just the superficial physical level of life.

I don't complain about that. I know God is real. I know God's intentions for human sexuality based upon the Bible, through which I've learned a lot about God's interactions with humans. If you say God doesn't exist then I will use practical argument to show you why homosexuality and abortion is wrong. You can agree or disagree. I don't lose any sleep over it. Though I would love to see you come to know Christ. There's nothing better in life (believe me, I've tried some pretty crazy things so far). Hope that helped.

I'm a Christian, but I definately see your point. Many people (on both sides of an issue) get offended when people express their own views.

Keep two things in mind: you have to admit yourself, some atheists on here are very flippant in addition to being insulting, and that is ok for someone to be upset about. Two, on this forum you are dealing with amateur debaters who do not know how to deal maturely with other people's opinions.

It's clear from some response in this section that for some, Scripture represent a substitute for thinking. Rather than have attitudes or opinions, such people have verses.

And - predictably - they think this is a rational way to behave; that a Biblical reference trumps any form of reasoned arguments. Being told their argument is invalid is baffling to them: it's right there in the Bible!

well, its simple. And this IS the answer.

What is God?? no one knows. He's mr. mysterious...

so when someone doesn't understand something.. "it is because God did it."

....wo.

I'm sure that the reason i tripped today was because God needed me to waste an extra second so that a car didn't run me over....

I've tried having discussions with my Mormon Dad about things, and no matter what, he is always right. And he thinks he is always right about religion and God. I'm glad most normal people aren't like that. I don't know how people like that have friends. Well actually, in fact my dad doesn't actually have any friends mainly because of that reason. Seriously.

It really doesn't matter what people believe. We are either wrong or right and no one will come back to tell us either way. Although, I am Christian, I believe that all go to heaven regardless.

Attack of any kind is always unjustified.