Does Messianic Judaism recognize only matrilineal descent in determining Jewish identity?

***Does Messianic Judaism recognize only matrilineal descent in determining Jewish identity?***

A better question would be do the Jewish scriptures recognize only matrimonial descent in determining Jewish identity?

The answer is no, of course not. Any serious student of the Tanach would know Ahaziah's mother did not convert to Judaism.

As mama_pajama_1 says:

***Jezebel, as a princess of Sidon (1 Kings 16:31), was a Phoenician, not a Jew.***

Serious students of the scriptures would know that the kings of Israel were Jews. If there were exceptions to the rule, then it would have been noted in the record by those giving the account under the direction of the oral Torah.

Given that the writer of the record had access to better information, namely, experiencing the even personally instead of being totally dependent on someone else's writing living in a different culture in a different time, legal analysis would always accept the first hand experience. No one practicing law fairly and ethically could ever allow the person reading only the writing of an eye witness years after the event to say, "That isn't the right interpretation of what happened. Here, let me tell you what really happened so you know how to think about this event."

So when the prophet who was responsible for perfectly passing the oral Torah to the next generation said,

***I Kings 22:52 Ahaziah the son of Ahab began to reign over Israel in Samaria in the seventeenth year of Jehoshaphat king of Judah, and he reigned two years over Israel. 53 And he did that which was evil in the sight of HaShem, and walked in the way of his father, and in the way of his mother, and in the way of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, wherein he made Israel to sin. 54 And he served Baal, and worshiped him, and provoked HaShem, the G-d of Israel, according to all that his father had done.*** http://www.hareidi.org/bible/1_Kings22.htm#50

and no other true prophet corrects him, then the reader can either believe or reject the Jewish scripture, but can't change the scripture to comply with their personal belief. Therefore, the Jewish Scripture stand as written or the authority and reliability of all scripture is diminished...not simply the verse that someone wants to change.

As the scripture upholds Ahaziah right to be a Jew and not label him an "apostate Jew", then there is no way for us at this point in time to correct the prophet's account without also putting the authority and reliability of all scriptures into question.

And there is no fair and ethical way to label just Ahaziah as an "apostate Jew" without stating that all Israel during his time were "apostate Jews" because the prophet said to HaShem,

***1 Kings 19:'What doest thou here, Elijah?' 10 And he said: 'I have been very jealous for HaShem, the G-d of hosts; for the children of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, thrown down Thine altars, and slain Thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.'***

The problem is that all of Israel had "forsaken Thy covenant" making all the children of Israel "apostate." Therefore, it is impossible to say that Ahaziah was the only acception to the rule. There is no way to look back and gain other information to the Jewish scriptures about Ahaziah.

So either the Jewish scriptures stand with Ahaziah being fully Jewish and not an "apostate Jew" or a non-Jew or the Jewish scriptures should be considered historically accurate and all its teaching about HaShem is questionable.

My believe is that all the Jewish Scripture is accurate and reliable and therefore its teaching about HaShem and Ahaziah are also accurate and reliable.

Hope this helps

EDIT

If we are not Jews, then we are Gentiles / Pagans. There are only two Biblical choices of what you are. There is no third option.

When God called Israel out of Egypt, there were only 2 choices. Put the blood of the lamb on the door or not. There was no third option as only those with the blood of the lamb on the door were passed over. All the others were not.

When Marcuss says that Messianic Jews aren't Jews, he is really saying that Messianic Jews are pagans that do not share the original manuscripts known as the Jewish scriptures and do not have the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as their God.

In other words, Marcuss' desire to own the word, "Jew" must also be seen as a desire to exclusive rights to the King of the Universe, the God of Israel as the Jewish scriptures describe.

As a Converted Messianic Jew, I came to know the God of Israel because of my study of the Jewish scriptures. My God not only created me but equipped me for every good work that He created me to do. He called and commissioned me into His service as I would not know why I was made if my Creator didn't tell me.

As God as my witness, there is no way I am a pagen or Gentile or any of the other words that fit under this category.

As there is no other scriptural description of being a child of the God of Israel without also being a child of Israel, I converted. And the Holy Spirit sealed my conversion.

There aren't more Biblical choices. There are only Jews and Gentiles.

***See, one can NOT convert to Judaism by becoming a Baptist. See how that works?

And, no...it is NOT "a matter of opinion!" it is a matter of law!*** Kate J

EDIT 2

The angels have the Arc Light. said: "So in your mind, the Roman Empire is a more authoritative source on Jewish law than Judaism."

Here is part of history of Judaism during the Roman empire.

1. The government of Roman ruled Israel.

2. The children of Israel spoke as the Romans because of the Roman rule.

3. It was while Rome was ruling that Solomon's Temple was renamed "Herod's Temple."

4. While Rome ruled, the High Priest was selected by Rome instead of the ways the Torah mandated.

5. It was after a failed revolt that Rome tore down Herod's Temple and effectively stopped the sacrifices as the Torah describes to this day.

6. The writing of the oral Torah occurred during the Roman rule even though Israel had be conquered several times before.

So, yes, Rome apparently had "more authoritative source on Jewish law than Judaism" during its day and is the reason behind the large changes from the Biblical Judaism to modern Judaism.

In Messianic Judaism (Christianity) they believe everyone can call themselves Jewish, weather they were one or not.

They don't hold the same beliefs as genuine Judaism. So when it comes to the question of who is Jewish, it's considered irrelevant to them because as long as a person declares them self as a Jew then in their eyes that makes the person Jewish even if they were never born, raised or recognized by the genuine Jewish community as Jews.

In my opinion Messianic Judaism undermines and undercuts genuine Judaism. And it's just another attempt at trying to use replacement theology so that they can wipe the Jewish people out, spiritually. By saying that real Jews aren't completed and "saved".

The fact is once a Jewish person converts to Christianity they are no longer Jewish. The same goes for any other person from another religion converting to Christianity.

Jew + Christianity = Christian

Muslim + Christianity = Christian

Buddhist + Christianity = Christian

There is no such thing as a Jewish-Christan, Muslim-Christian, Buddist-Christian, etc. Because religion and race are two different things and being Jewish is about being a part of Judaism (the religion) just like being a Muslim is about being a follower of Islam, and so on.

Jews are not a race (because there are black Jews, white Jews, etc.) and neither is being a Muslim, or a Buddhist, etc.

# # #

Worshiping a man or anything else other than G-d is against the commandments.

Deuteronomy 5:7

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

And G-d said that he is not a man.

Numbers 23:19

G-d is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of man that he should repent.

G-d alone saves you.

Isaiah 43:10-13

Ye are my witnesses, saith the L-rd, And my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe and understand that I am He; before me there was no G-d formed, neither shall any be after Me.

I even I am the L-rd; and beside me there is no savior.

I have declared, and I have saved, and I have announced, and there was no strange god among you; therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the L-rd, and I am G-d.

Yea, since the day was I am He, and there is none that can deliver out of my hand; I will work, and who can reverse it?

This is just about as stupid as it gets. If someone converts to Judaism, they will have to do that within the context of Judaism. Otherwise, whatever they're doing is not Judaism. A place where so-called 'Messianic Jews' are deciding what's OK and what isn't, is not a place where one can convert to Judaism. I really don't care what your practices and beliefs are; I do care what you call yourself. It is misleading to say you are 90 when you're clearly 29, and it's misleading to say you're a US citizen when your passport is British. It's also misleading to say you're Jewish when your beliefs run counter to everything that Judaism has been understood to be for the last few millennia.

Incidentally, it's Christians who are hung up about homosexuality and atheism. That's why you're having a problem understanding that Jews don't see gay people or non-believers as somehow beyond the pale. Some Jews (largely Orthodox) believe that homosexuality is not as G-d intended, but even among them, they don't see it as some major no-no. And in fact, many Jews realise that the verses which are cited as 'proving' that homosexuality is forbidden by G-d are in fact about the practices of certain surrounding belief systems, not about sexuality per se.

Messianic Jews are Christians,they are NOT JEWS;they cannot determine who a Jew is. Jews believe a person born to a Jewish mother or formally converted to Judaism is a Jew

Let me quote mama_pajama_1:

"BTW, I have had Rabbis from three different branches tell me that this answer is correct. Of course, the Orthodox Rabbi did not agree with regard to the issue of considering a Jew the child of a Jewish father only when the child is raised exclusively in Judaism. Reform Jews know this. Now onto the explanation. It really isn't hard to understand if you keep in mind that Jewish identity is tribal based law.

People related to one another share genetic markers. Jews began as a family, then as a small group of tribes and has remained tribal in nature. However, Jews are NOT considered *an* ethnicity. There is simply NO single Jewish ethnicity. Jewish ethnicity does not define Jewish identity.

Jews are a nation people, Israel (tribal origin) bound by an eternal covenant of the faith (religion) of Judaism. We are like a huge family and only the family can determine who is a member of it. It is the laws of Judaism, given to the covenant nation, Israel, in the Torah, that determine Jewish identity. It is not a matter of “blood” but of self-determination through the laws of the Jewish people.

The Jewish people are considered both a nation and a religion. Our connection is primarily one of faith (religion) through the covenant of Israel, yet membership is also conferred by birth, through matrilineal descent .One may also become a part of the nation Israel by adoption of the faith of Judaism and formal procedures of conversion.

One who converts to Judaism is considered as FULLY Jewish as one born Jewish and their children are Jews. This has been the case since the times of the Torah....

You can become a member of a tribe or nation if you meet the criteria of citizenship. And the covenant people, Klal Yisrael, remain as in the earliest days of the covenant..a nation. It hasn't changed.

Reform Judaism ( of which I am a member) will consider as Jewish one whose father is a Jew IF the child was RAISED in Judaism actively and exclusively. Even in Reform Judaism, simply having a Jewish father without exclusively Jewish upbringing, would require conversion on the part of the person with only a Jewish father to become a Jew.

It is against Jewish law for any Jew to discriminate against a convert to Judaism. Since the time of the Torah converts have been accepted as fully Jewish, and this is the case in all branches. We are not even supposed to refer to the fact that they are converts! It is up to them if they wish to identify themselves as such. They are Jews, period."

Jesus is a Jew. There were no Gentile disciples before Acts 10 and the word Christian is only used 3 times in the NT, the first was Acts 11.

How can receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit eliminate someone from being Jewish? It didn't eliminate the prophets.

How can every other group of Jews be allowed Gentile conversions except Messianics? To discriminate against the Messianics would go against Jewish law as Mama_pajama_1 said.

So in your mind, the Roman Empire is a more authoritative source on Jewish law than Judaism.

Absolutely fascinating. No wonder you don't grasp the problem here.

Messianic Jews like other Jews are diverse in their opinions. In general it is my understanding that people don't convert into Messianic Judaism. They are Jews that come to believe that Jesus was the Messiah. I don't know about J4J. They are unique among "Messianic" groups. Some Messianic Congregations will not accept Gentiles, some do but the Gentiles have a different but equal status. They are considered "grafted in" but are not considered Jews but Messianics.

The people here are only speaking about J4J because they are an easier target. The shrill tone speaks for its self. When people don't believe some other people have a right to exist you have to wonder about what they are saying about them.

It would have been best to ask the question on a day that is not the Sabbath. Considering the hate poured out on them here already I doubt that any will answer.

This is interesting. Fake Jews wondering who is considered Jewish if they have children, I mean, why worry? It won't matter if it's the mother or the father, they aren't Jewish, weren't born a Jew, did not convert as a Jew converts... and even in your hypothetical backwards scenario, no Chabad Jew would convert to Messianic Judaism, if he did anything he would go back to what he already was, which was a Chabadnik.

If he remained secular, 100% chance that he would not marry a gentile woman even if she told him she converted "messianic", because to him secular or not, she would still not be a Jew, and he would only marry a Jew.

You write:

"If a gentile woman converts to Judaism in a Messianic synagogue, "

There's a problem here.. you can't convert to Judaism in a Messianic synagogue, since "messianic Judaism" = Christianity.

The former Chabad-Lubovitcher-now-secular-Jew in your example, as a Jew from birth, wouldn't have to convert to any form of Judaism. However, he married a non-Jew, so his children are not Jewish from birth. They can convert to Judaism, as can his wife, but not in a "messianic synagogue," but in an actual Jewish denomination with an ordained rabbi.

Thank you for asking your question in a respectful way. The answer is really a matter of opinion, since there is no equivalent of a "Messianic Jewish halakha." In fact, Messianic Judaism stands in CONTRAST and in OPPOSITION TO halakha, since such "laws of men" are not meant to over-ride what the Father has commanded. Therefore, all answers (including my own) can only be based on opinion.

In my view, the answer to the specific circumstances of your first question is "no." (Please note that my answer MAY be different under other circumstances.) You opened your question by stating that "If a gentile woman converts to Judaism in a Messianic synagogue ..." So this question must be asked first: under the New Covenant, would such a "conversion" be necessary?

The Apostle Paul taught several things regarding the "value" in God's eyes of being a Jew. Briefly, they can be boiled down to these statements of his:

1) Romans 3:1 "What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God."

2) Romans 11:28 "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

In summary, there is much to be said for having an ethnically Jewish heritage -- because God chose them to be His original "point of contact" with the human race AND because they play a key role in God's work for the salvation of humankind -- in the past, present AND the future. These things tell us one VITAL piece of information: that ethnic Jews are POSITIONALLY special to God, whether they do or do not believe.

Yet, Paul also writes: Romans 10:11 "For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek [i.e. Gentile], for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”" This statement tells us another VITAL piece of information: while ethnic Jews are positionally special to God, they are NO MORE SPECIAL to Him with regard to salvation than Gentiles are.

Once we understand these concepts, the answer to your question becomes clear, in ***my opinion***: any Gentile who approaches a Messianic Jewish Rabbi/Pastor and states that she wishes to convert to Judaism will be informed that it is not necessary. If she is saved, she already has a depth of spiritual riches that an unsaved Jew doesn't have! Her calling is from God and she is chosen for a purpose, as well (1 Peter 2:9 & Revelation 5:10). Since keeping Torah does not make a believer righteous (Romans 3:21, Romans 10:4, Galatians 2:21, Philippians 3:9), and since we are made rightous by our faith -- which she already has -- converting to Judaism would not profit her at all. This makes any question regarding her children moot.

With regard to the former Lubavitcher: again, Messianic Judaism does not recognize halakha. But based on what I am seeing within the MJ movement, the children of this former Lubavitcher would, in fact, be considered ethnically Jewish. They would not automatically be considered "Messianic Jews," since a Jew can ONLY become a follower of Yeshua by FAITH. Therefore, each child would have to become born again (John 3:3-6) in order to be officially recognized as a Messianic Jew.

Forgive me if this seems blunt, but "Messianic Judaism" is not Judaism at all but instead is a sect of Christianity that is not part of Judaism in any way. Be aware that any answers you get from anyone saying they are a "messianic Jew" will be answers given from a Christian perspective.

In the future, please put quotation marks around the term to indicate the term has no legitimacy. It is an oxymoron made up by those Christians who call themselves Jews to refer to themselves. This and its related terms ("messianic Jews" and "messianic rabbi") are insulting to Jews and should not be used at all. But if they have to be used, as in response to this question, they should always be put in quotation marks to indicate they are nonsense terms.

Thank you in advance,

edit: Why do you insist on insulting us by labeling these frauds as being affiliated with us? ("The opinion of the other four major N. American Jewish denominations is not my focus here.") By referring to us as "the other major N. American Jewish denominations" you give them status as somehow being a Jewish denomination. They are not. It would be like if I was talking about followers of Zeus and in the same breath spoke of the "other major N. American Christian denominations." WHY do you choose to insult us like this? What do you have against Jews? Why do you hate us so?

edit: Suzie Mu has fallen into the trap set by the Christians who call themselves Jews. They want it to seem like we are persecuting them for their beliefs. Suzie Mu says we would deny them the right to exist. No, that is not correct at all. The ONLY thing we object to is the illegitimate use of our name. We don't care what they do or how they do it. All we object to is the fact that they say the religion they are practicing is Judaism. It is not. We know. So, we suggest they come up with some other name, one which has not already been taken.

edit--Suzanne just cracks me up! Quoting Christian scripture repeatedly to justify her "opinion" on Jewish matters! Simply hilarious!

edit--I am not Mark S. I use no other account. I used to be known as "marcus" but I changed my name to "marcuss." Once again I am accused of "hate" because I object to religious fraud.

edit: Grafted1 conveniently left out from his long quote from mama pajama the part where she said how a Jew becomes apostate and according to jewish law is then no longer considered a member of the nation people, Israel, the Jews.

Furthermore, NOBODY EVERY SAID GENTILES CAN NOT CONVERT TO JUDAISM--even "messianic Jews" can convert to Judaism!