Cross training, out of curiosity...?

Learning something from different arts is not the problem. I don't know any Masters that have not learned something from another instructor in a different style. All style have something to offer. All style are complete in their own right. They all have strengths and weakness if you want to call them that.

The problem comes when a beginner thinks are have been told bu people with very limited knowledge that karate is not a complete system or that another style is not complete. Then they are told that you have to learn 3 or 4 other styles in order to be complete. While it is true that some schools may not have taught them everything that is within the kata because some instructors simply don't know. They were never taught. many weren't taught because they got a black belt and left and open their own school in search of the all mighty dollar. had they stayed long enough to get the 4th Dan they might have began to really learn more about their art. As a beginner your mind should be like a sponge. It should absorb quite a bit. But if you attempt to learn too many things too fast you may never fully grasp the true concept of what is being taught. Example: let say this is your first day or week in my class. I show you an advanced kata like gojushiho. I show you the kata in its entirety. Then next week I ask you to show me what you have learned and do this kata. How many student do you think will be able to do this? Now if I break down the kata and show 3 or 4 moves and ask you to repeat them most people should be able to do that. But just because they can repeat the move does not mean they have an understanding of those moves.

There is a gentleman that I know that have been studying TKD. His school has closed down. However he is set on continuing in TKD to obtain the coveted black belt. He is training in our dojo. We primarily teach Shorin Ryu and jujitsu. Most do not learn jujitsu for rank. It is mainly taught for self defense. We do not teach the small children jujitsu. If we teach jujitsu fro rank it is normally done to other that have a black belt from other schools. My instructor is a 6th or 7th Dan in TKD but he rarely teaches it. The young man asks me to watch him do his kata and to help him with it. I do not train in TKD but I do have an understanding of kata. My sensei ask me to help him so I agreed. After watching him and noticing something being off. I began to ask questions. What is this move or what are you doing here? Not to my surprise he could not tell me if the techniques was a block or a strike or a break. I was given the kata he was supposed to learn on paper with diagrams. I began doing to the kata with him. I began to break down what I believe those move to be in the kata to get a better picture of the kata. After doing this I asked my instructor and other instructors of this style what where those techniques or what were we trying to accomplish with these moves? They told me that I was correct in breaking down the kata. Then I began teaching him from that standpoint on how to do the kata. Certain moves must be done a faster speed because of the transitions. You can't black a strike and wait 3 seconds before you counter. After a block their must be an immediate counter or another strike is coming or you block itself must be strike. :-)

I feel sorry for this guy. he has been doing martial arts this long and has know knowledge of what he is doing. This is why some people view the kata as a dance. They have no or little knowledge of the kata. I began teaching him that a strike has to go to a specific area. You don't punch just to punch. What is your target? The floating rib, the sternum, the solar plexus, the button, the bridge of the nose, etc. I don't wildly punch at anything I have a target.

Training in several styles lead to a lot of confusion for beginners. Example: in matsabashi ry (shorin ryu) when doing a chuto strike our hand are low (like a groin strike to a person in the rear) to begin and we finish with a follow-through. But in TKD doing the same strike they hands are high. If I were teaching kobyashi ryu the hand also are held high. In shotokan it may be different. Now the student is completely lost as to what is correct. They all are correct. They are correct and acceptable for the style that it fits. Why did they changed if they all had an original source let say China. It was a difference of opinion. Some felt it was quicker to do it different. Some believe they should keep it traditional. Some feel they get more power doing it a certain way. They all can explain it and justify it and demonstrate it. They all are correct. But most beginners can't discern this.

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Also I can tell you from personal experience that situations like confusing the kata with another or mixing several different kata together will happen. It has happened to me. I was in a car accident and broke my fibula an tibia. I wasn't able to do anything for 2 years. It still is a problem for me today. I attempted to do my 18 kata. I have known these kata for years. I haven't practice remind you in 2 years. I was able to do many of the kata, but at a certain point I began mixing one of the kata in with a different kata. This was from a lack of recent practice on that one kata. I can imagine a beginner doing this all of the time with their techniques.

Rhythmic gymnastics is not a good cross training for ballet. You don't use your turnout and the alignment is very different. If you are 21, you are already getting to be too old to join a ballet company without any professional experience. Most girls apprentice at age 16 right out of high school and then if lucky are asked to join 6 months later. Ballet likes young girls and as you might realize many ballet dancers retire in their late 20s if they haven't been injured. There are a few that do go on well into their thirties. At 21 you should be in your prime and have gone through the ranks of corps de ballet and soloist and hopefully advancing to be be a principal. You will find it hard to find a ballet company that will take an apprentice of your age, and a well established ballet company would not add someone cold to the company. It is during the apprentice time that you learn the companies repertory. Dancers can be hired from other companies at your age, but they have had at least 5 years of professional experience. Most ballet careers only last about 10 years. If you are thinking Cirque de soleil, they use ballet both dancers and gymnasts in different ways. They don't expect you to do both. Those are very coveted jobs because the pay is great.

Yes rank is not of much importance as time training. If some one wanders from place to place with out staying at one place get a solid base, then what have they really learned. I don't think we have any one who is "against" cross training but rather how much time they have put in to one art to learn that one, rank aside.

As you mentioned situations vary. It varies a lot for me. The people that really know an art that move here very rarely stay. This is a rough and tumble place that is all about hard work and oil. The Goju Ryu instructor that promoted my MMA coach to Nidan then moved. The Isshin Ryu teacher left after a few years and bad school took his place. The BJJ black belts promoted one person to brown and left. There are a couple of good schools here but not many. All any one here who wants to really learn will have to spend time some where and move on

On that note many of the longer lasting guys on this forum talk about how one will never "master" a martial art learning this way. I say if I train as hard as I can in what I can while I can to learn what I can with out the idea of ever becoming a "master" makes me less of a martial artist in their eyes...well then the problem is theirs, not mine

i think you should first have a base style. But yes cross training is the best training you can do. Because one style isn't perfect. you must know multiple styles, and take knowledge from many different arts to build a full arsenal of techniques, and fighting skills. Many people will train one style until they have mastered the basics, and then move on to another style. Or better yet you could find an MMA gym which will offer multiple programs, in striking, wrestling, submissions ect. and you can train all of them at one time.

I don't think cross training should be avoided, but after a good few years (say 10 years or so) of training in one art, working hard at it, having a good understanding and in depth knowledge on the current art then you can begin learning other arts. Learning another art will show you another side or way of fighting and will arm you with new and more techniques.

I considered cross training. But then I thought "why spend about another 3 hours or so a week learning an extra art when I can use that same time to improve the art I am doing now?".

Bruce Lee's quote also helped me to make my decision to stick with one for now:

"I do not fear the man who has practiced a thousand kicks once, but I fear the man who practiced one kick a thousand times" - It's not the exact quote, but it's something like that. I don't think that only applies to kicks.

well I cross train so obviously I'm in support of it. I do acknowledge that you move a bit slower in learning the individual styles but by the same token if you find 2 martial arts that are synergistic it can really benefit you in the long run. Just stick it out and make a commitment to attain the high ranks

Good question...I have nothing against learning this way if that is what you want. When it comes down to it a belt is just a personel goal, and the skill level varies from school to school.

My main problem is when somebody says does karate for a year, or at a bad school, then they proceed to tell everyone what it does and does not have. After 18 years i an just getting into some of the more advanced applications of our basic techniques...it takes time and study.

My main problem is someone who trains for a while, and then thinks they know everything it contains...for instance most do not know that there is in fact an Okinawan form of wrestling, and most of the greta karate masters actually trained it, so it would stand to reason that they included it in their system....whether they taught it or not.

I've always viewed cross training as a way to become more effective at self defense. This statement may at first seem a bit simplistic, but think about it. The whole reason I began studying MA was to learn to defend myself. I wasn't trying to win any trophies. Just survive the street fights which were commonplace in Detroit when I was growing up. My father first taught me to box. Later I began my training in Ju Jitsu. Since then I've exposed myself to, and experimented in a few more Arts. All in the hopes of being able to better defend myself should the need arise. I do believe in training in a "primary" Art, but I also think to become better at self defense you should train in "secondary" Arts as well.

i look at it as a way to better understand my original style. and also as a further way to understand kata. i found that almost ever technique i see in a different style is in the shotokan kata. there are very few instances where i have to say such and such technique is from this style or that.

i dont really follow styles as much as i follow instructors. i really could careless about which style it is.

when is the right time is not the same for every person, you need to have a good understanding of your first style, before you cross-train

I don't think it is a good idea to cross train in stand up arts. For example it is very tough as a beginner to mix TKD and Karate. But to mix one of those with a grappling or throwing art like Judo or Jujutsu, it will be a lot less confusing because the style is very different.