German Shepherd workingline vs showline questions....?

1) German show line. Roached back.

2) BYB special. Probably mostly american show lines, but some german lines may of been used for "buyer" appeal and that stockier look

3) The snippy features of american show lines, the roached back of german show lines.

4) DEFINITELY american show lines

5) Working. Slight slope in the back. Lack of black and tan. A little small and snippy for true working lines.

6) Working line.

What really irritates me is this myth that ALL slopes are bad and working lined dogs have straight backs. NOT TRUE. While they do have "straight" backs, the shoulders should be set higher then the hips, leading to a SLIGHT SLOPE in the back. If I see a GSD with a straight parallel back, then 9 times out of 10 that is a poorly bred dog. (Like number 2, the only dog with a "straight" back, and I would honestly say the dog with the worst breeding out of all of those.

Edit: BOYS! Either strip down to your thongs and battle it out already (preferably on a video that will be sent in a mass email to all DS regulars), or stop this constant answer bickering! LOL. Put on your big boy panties, and pick up a phone if you really want a battle of the breeds (or a battle of testosterone)!

Greek, I may know next to nothing about true working dogs, but I feel it is unfair to dismiss the GSD breed as a whole just because mals may or may not have become the top working breed. Just because something may not be the BEST, doesn't mean it's sh*t. I've known some fine PD GSDs, one of which saved my uncle's life in the line of duty. Could a mal of done better in any of the situations he was in? Possibly. But that is neither here nor there, he still got the job done, he was still an amazing animal and a life long partner and companion to my uncle (ACTUALLY... I think he's still alive... he would be getting pretty old though.... no, he's probably dead... HMMM....)

And Curtis, I KNOW that you've admitted Mals may be better working dogs in PD and PP then GSDs, so I don't know why you are debating that here. You've said so yourself that GSDs may not be the BEST in the activities that they do, but they are versatile and excel at a wide range of activities, still making them a great working breed, and I agree with that.

Now, if you both hate me, you know how to reach me, LMAO

:)

There are still some very nice working line German Shepherd Dogs, but yes, there has developed a split between working dogs and show dogs which is a shame, but after years of going in the wrong direction, I would say that the show dog lines are improving as well regarding health and temperament, and following the original breed standard, at least here in Europe. So, I think the GSD will come out alive and kicking, and as "Love is a..." said, many pro handlers just don't want to deal with Malinois. I know of experienced military dog handlers that went from GSD to Malinois and straight back to GSD again. It is not a dog for everyone. But speaking as an owner of the sibling to the Malinois, the Groenendael, I agree that what is happening to the working dog/protection breeds is going in the wrong direction. My first dog was a breed typical Tervueren, a working dog, but try to find one now and it is near impossible because the Tervueren and Groenendael in many lines, particularly the French, have been breed for beauty. From a theoretical point of view, one could also say that the Malinois working dogs are also being bred away from the breed standard, but in the opposite direction of the Groenendael and Tervueren, and of all the four varieties it is probably the Laeknois that matches the original breed standard the closest. I would love to see more focus on temperament and getting the Groenendael and Tervueren as a whole back to the working dog standard. They were not bred to be pretty, couch potato family dogs and the breeding in that direction is ruining them. I hate that I have to do such intensive research to find a good Groenendael or Tervueren, and to be honest, the dog I have now is too soft according to the breed standard. For the Malinois, if it were up to me, it would be split in two - a hard working line and a breed standard working line, but unfortunately I cannot swing a magic wand and make all breeders and show judges to what I want them to. For the Laekenois, well, maybe the fact that they are the least popular of the Belgian Shepherd Dogs is actually not such a negative thing for the breed after all.

I'm not gonna say I know alot about german shepherds. I don't. But I know from experience with my friend's and family's shepherds that sloping backs = big problems with the onset of age. Although I don't know to much about the difference between show and work lines, work lines I believe are more focused on the mom and dad's success in working rather then showing, and sloping backs don't always equal a good working dog depending on the work they're doing. I believe the KC in england has changed the standard for the croup of the back in GSDs as to minimize the sloped backs, it probably won't change much though.

Anyway to take a guess at the photo I'd say the on with the best looking back is number 2, to me it would appear that any dog with a sloped back as much as number 1 would have difficulty working, be it herding or guarding.

I don't care about the appearance, i care about the implications on health and welfare...

A GSD whether showline or working need to have good hip and elbow scores.

A relative of mine breeds working GSDs to very high specifications and they look like this:

http://homepages.tesco.net/karen.knott/images/Chya...

Bad breeders exist in all disciplines, so it is no surprise to me that some working GSD have bad hips.

The problem is that when poor health is encouraged by the showring by awarding marks for distictive features such as a sloping back without consideration to how that sloping back is produced.

I gotta say, I don't know much about GSD's, since its not a breed I own or know anyone who owns.

Now, yesterday was at a AKC breed show and watched the GSD's which was ahead of us and I can only say the dogs I saw in the ring look crippled. They also looked to me, small and spindley.

I remember GSD's back in the day, which were imposing dogs and I was not impressed at all by what I saw. Such as shame.

edit: The dogs I saw yesterday, would not have been able to do a job. Even "flying around the showring", was painful to watch.

yes, there is one standard. Just one.

BUT-the issue arrises whith the judge.

the JUDGE picks the dog that matches HIS interpretation of the standard. If the judge sees slightly sloping back, and interprets that as beign roached, well, thats the dog he will put up.

once a certain type is winning, and becoming mroe "popular", the show breeders, in order to actually champion their dogs will start breeding to match the judging, not the written standard.

cause and effect, traits get more and more extreme, and become the "norm" because its the majority, and thats how these floppy footed, cow hocked roach backed beasts are winning.

working people, in general do not care what a dog looks like. Obviously, a dog with very poor structure cannot perform, athletically speaking, the job they are doing, its too much for their wacked out skeleton, so they would wash out, so conformation shows are irreleveant to them, because form follows function.

so, imo, working dogs have the CORRECT structure, because it allows them to do their job with ease.

sometimes, in conforamtion class with my crested, or AB, i get placed between 2 "GSD's" and it just makes me cringe-i get an up close view of just how cow hocked the show lines are, and it makes me concerned, i can't think of a single breed, or even animal where being COW HOCKED to the degree they are is in any way correct structure, it just makes their back end weaker. but, its all how the judge interprets the standard, with a good dose of complacency and politics thrown in. its sad.

i am glad with my breed(the AB), in most of the shows, they are recognized as a real working breed, and when they are looked over, they have to look like they could work, with ease. im sure it will change, for the worse, but for now, i can live with where they are, which is why i work on showing that dog. You would never catch me in the ring showing off a breed that i believed was all wrong.

as far as tellign which is working/show lines by pictures, well, i can tell most show lines a mile away, especially the american ones.

working lines are different, i can't see temperament and drives. But i CAN spot a dog that physically at least, looks like it could perform with out injury, like it has a body that one of an athlete, and a worker.

Yes...there is ONE standard. However, there are 2 different breeds called GSD's. There are German Shepherds that meet the standard in every way, shape and form. Then there are the "show dogs"....also referred to as a German Shepherd. They are an exaggeration on the breed physically. As far as temperament and abilities....they do not even register on any type of measurable scale. That is what is "popular" in the show ring though. Why they never changed the name of something so far out of the breed is beyond me. They could just as well call a Bichon Frise a German Shepherd. The show ring has nothing to do with quality of a dog.....and RARELY does it have to do with the STANDARD. The show ring is there to award prizes to whoever is the most "TRENDY".

I am one of the people that doesn't like the sloping back. I know and have used two breeders who breed working GSD's which do not conform to the sloping backs. Of the dogs from them that I know of the worst hip score they have is a 8/5. I know of a show breeder who was advised NOT to breed from a ***** as her hip xrays were so bad we refused to send them off. We did not want to lower the breed average which they would have done considerably. All of his dogs backs sloped. Unfortunately he ignored our advice and bred from her. I know of two people that bought pups against my advice, they also didn't insure against my advice and they have both had the dogs put to sleep at under 5 years old due to horrendous hip displasia.

I know if I attempt to identify which dog is which in your photos you'll turn around and say ' well actually.....' A lot of dog's can be made to stand that way for the photo's. I used to use a collie to demonstrate what I was talking about to people. It is those that have to stand that way because of breeding I am against.

I just like to add that for those who think the show line GSDs have a high instance of HD, there is no way in the world they could fly around the ring like they do if they were not healthy. A lot of that sloping stems from the way they are stacked, which allows them to get that push off they need to get that speed. People who show GSDs at least in the US, have to be very active or they would not be able to keep up. I say at least in the US, because in England the way they are gaited is atrocious.

I will try and see if I can identify some, but really I don't pay much attention to the splitting within breeds.

1) Looks very much like the show dogs in England, with those roached backs. I can also tell you now that their rears are far worse then you will ever see in the US. But of course you rarely see those dogs fly around the ring, just from what I saw.

4) Show line, IMO he has the dog too stretched out in the back

6) Working line, just because you don't see sable in show lines, or at least I have never seen one

Sorry thats all I can really do

Edit- Greek you're link is broken

Yep it works

This is what I got about these amazing breeds. The German Shepherd personality is aloof but not usually aggressive. He's a reserved dog; he doesn't make friends immediately, but once he does, he's extremely loyal. With his family he's easy-going and approachable, but when threatened he can be strong and protective, making him an excellent watchdog.

More details, http://xrl.us/becaa4