What proof do Jews have that most of the Tanakh was translated by non Jews and later changed?

The Christian Bible's Old Testament (it’s adaptation of Tanakh) reveals that in many places (not most, but many) there are significant translation differences rendering the meanings of the passages quite different. Not only are the books rearranged so that the books are not in the order of Torah, Prophets and Writings, but Kings, Ezra and Nehemiah are divided. The Protestant Christian Old Testament contains roughly the same books; the Vulgate has additional texts added to the canon that were originally written in Greek. The Greek Septuagint (meaning 70) was originally referring to the Torah portion only, and in fact, that is the only portion that was translated by 72 scribes whose translations matched. The rest of Tanakh was translated from the Hebrew to the Greek over the course of about 300 years and scholars cannot tell who or when exactly any of them were translated. Yet the common name of Septuagint is *now* generally applied to the whole Greek translation.

By the beginning of the first century CE, there were many different versions of each text that appeared, some of them with less accurate Hebrew to Greek. Also during this time, many other texts appeared originally written IN Greek such as the books of the Maccabees that were never considered holy scriptures by Jews. By the time of the beginnings of Christianity, some of these texts of Tanakh had become so changed through the Hellenization (introduction of Greek philosophical concepts through language) that they were no longer adherent to Torah precept. The ancient world was one in which the religion and customs of the ruling people were imposed upon the conquered. Jewish law always forbade attempts to syncretize. The Pharisees formed to counter the attempts of the Hellenists, long before the Romans added their own efforts.

****The Greek Septuagint called the Old Testament is not a Jewish document, but rather a Christian one. The original Septuagint, created 2,200 years ago by 72 Jewish translators, was a Greek translation of the Five Books of Moses alone. It therefore did not contain prophetic Books of the Bible such as Isaiah. The Septuagint as we have it today, which includes the Prophets and Writings as well, is a product of the church, not the Jewish people. In fact, the Septuagint remains the official Old Testament of the Greek Orthodox Church, and the manuscripts that consist of our Septuagint today date to the third century C.E. The fact that additional books known as the Apocrypha, which are uniquely sacred to the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church, are found in the Septuagint should raise a red flag to those inquiring into the Jewishness of the Septuagint.

The fact that the original Septuagint translated by Jewish scribes more than 22 centuries ago was only of the Pentateuch and not of prophetic books of the Bible such as Isaiah is confirmed by countless sources including the ancient Letter of Aristeas, which is the earliest attestation to the existence of the Septuagint. The Talmud also states this explicitly in Tractate Megillah (9a), and Josephus as well affirms that the Septuagint was a translation only of the Law of Moses in his preface to Antiquities of the Jews. Moreover, Jerome, a church father and Bible translator who could hardly be construed as friendly to Judaism, affirms Josephus' statement regarding the authorship of the Septuagint in his preface to The Book of Hebrew Questions.

In fact, Dr. F.F. Bruce, the preeminent professor of Biblical exegesis, keenly points out that, strictly speaking, the Septuagint deals only with the Pentateuch and not the whole Old Testament. Bruce writes, "The Jews might have gone on at a later time to authorize a standard text of the rest of the Septuagint, but . . . lost interest in the Septuagint altogether. With but few exceptions, every manuscript of the Septuagint which has come down to our day was copied and preserved in Christian, not Jewish, circles."*****

The accuracy of the words we see now in the Hebrew Bible was confirmed with the findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls where fragments of each book except the book of Esther (the last book to be included in the canon) match quite well with the Tanakh's Jews use today.

The majority of the Dead Sea scrolls were written in the Hebrew Language (approximately 90-95%) with Assyrian Block script. From this majority there are a few cases in which the scribes used Paleo-Hebrew (see for example 4QPaleoExodus).

Modern Hebrew is different from the ancient Paleo Hebrew, but the Hebrew of 2000 years ago is closer to modern Hebrew than the English of the 1700’s is to the English we speak today.

There was a council of rabbis and scribes at Yavneh 90 CE who worked hard to weed out from use any books attached to the Tanakh of the Hellenized versions of scripture that were being spread. Some Christian apologist scholars often try to claim that this was when the Jewish Bible's canon was FORMED in response to Christianity, but that ignores that their very own writings refer to it as a formed work already at the time of the writing of their New Testament! The council of these earliest rabbis were concerned that without the centrality of the Temple and the dispersion of Jews, the Hellenist apologists and Romans would corrupt the Tanakh by altering it through mistranslation into Greek and adding pagan precepts. There is no doubt that all the texts admitted into the Prophets and Writings were already a part of the Tanakh long before the time of Jesus. Some of the texts that Judaism never considered as a part of Jewish scripture were early apologetic attempts to tie in Christian dogma to the Tanakh. Others that were condemned, show pre-Christian attempts to Hellenize Judaism. Both the Greek and Roman conquerers tried to assimilate the Jewish people out of existence through such methods. These texts known as Pseudepigrapha were largely written between 200 BCE and 100 CE and included great amounts of Greek philosophy.

Most of the book of Daniel and portions of Ezra and a single sentence in Jeremiah are in Aramaic, a related language to Hebrew using Hebrew letters. All else in the Jewish Bible was written in Hebrew

The Apocrypha (Greek, "hidden books") are Jewish books not considered part of the Holy Scriptures of Judaism.

Pseudepigrapha (Greek, "falsely attributed") was given to Jewish writings, which were attributed to authors who did not actually write them...many people confuse the two terms and which books belong in each category

Neither Apocrypha or Pseudepigrapha have ever been Holy Scriptures to Judaism.

edit: I wish to REEMPHASIZE Hatikvah's excellent point, and note that the Jews of 1st Century Judea /Gallilee would have known the Tanakh as *read* to the community each week by the name of "Mikra". Hope she doesn't mind my copying of a portion of her answer here to repeat it's relevance to this q

"However, Jews have been reading/teaching from the Hebrew Bible from the time Ezra and Nehemiah returned from Babylon. They began teaching Torah (in Hebrew) on market days 3/day per week -- a practice which continues to this day. You might say that it was Ezra who first introduced public education."

edit: the work of Christian, Jewish and secular scholars as shown by the reputable scholarly references I provide, support my answer and the several other correct responses I see here from others who note that there is no assumption or conspiracy to state that what is *now * called the Septuagint..does not refer to the original Septuagint.

Greek was a common spoken language in 1st century Judea. Prior to the Roman occupation, the land had been occupied by Greek invaders for *two centuries*. Look at the United States..it took far less time than that for English to be the primary spoken language across this continent, an area much, much larger. The literate Hebrew speaking Jews were quickly immersed in the dominant Hellenist culture in attempts to assimilate it out of existence as ancient conquering peoples did. They also used efforts to syncretize their religion into the conquered people for this effort. In 333 BCE Alexander the Great conquered Judea.

In the second century, Antiochus IV Epiphanes tried to eradicate Judaism in favor of Hellenism leading to the 174 - 135 BCE Maccabean Revolt. The success of this revolt against forced assimilation and removal of Judaism is celebrated in the Jewish festival of Hanukkah. Aramaic and Greek were the common *spoken* languages in the 1st Century CE. By the time of the writing of the New Testament more than a generation after the events depicted within it, Hebrew was *still* the language of liturgy, prayer and study and of religious Jews. That never ceased.

Yet there definitely were significantly sizable segments of Judean and Gallilean populations of Jews who were completely apostate to Judaism and Hellenized prior to the Romans appearing with their own attempts to impose their ways into the populace.

Tammuz/Mithras worship for instance, was commonplace. Some Jews taught Greek philosophy in Greek entirely already and proudly took on Greek names.

The Septuagint was originally only the first five books. The rest was translated over the next 100 years or so by different translators and obviously could not have been translated by the original 70 translators.

If you believe the stories as to how it was translated there are obvious problems that should cause one to question the accuracy of the Septuagint. These range from the claim that the scribes were placed in different rooms and they all came up with exact copies of the Torah ( 70-72 exact copies) to the scribes substituting the name of Ptolemy's wife for an unclean animal. Many of these problems were created intentionally so that nobody with a knowledge of Torah would consider the Septuagint accurate.

On top of all this there were variants of the Septuagint circulating at least as early as the 3rd century, some of which are considered to be new translations not based on the original Septuagint.

No one has a "original" copy of the Septuagint that can be claimed to be of Jewish origin to compare with the Christian version that now exist. The Jews who translated the Torah into Greek concealed markers in the text that would indicate whether or not the text had been altered, many of these markers are now missing from the Greek text. Keep in mind that this was only the first 5 books. There is no agreement as to when, where, or who translated the rest.

Why do you ask for a Jewish answer, and then say a Jewish argument doesn't work?

There are many Jews who know enough Hebrew to translate the Tanach now. I'm not real sure what your question is, You make it seem as if Jews never translated the Tanach.

As for the Septuagint, it doesn't really matter. The Torah was translated to Greek. Why should that have any relevance to the English translations the christians use? I'm guessing your Greek isn't any better than your Hebrew.

Rivky - no one Jewish uses the Septuagint - please we're Jewish not idiots (speaking for everyone not Orthodox). You make comments like this from time to time -- please understand a little about Reform or at least assume we're rooted in Orthodox. Those early beginnings failed & the new start was Orthodox rooted.

=================

To asker:

You assume that because the first 5 books were translated, that means the rest were too? It was a big enough task, so no the rest wasn't at the time according to historical records & Jewish documentation. Jews & others had no reason to mistate what their activities were at that time for historical movtivation that exists now.

There is a clear line of difference between the Tanakh & the Torah, so the translation of one without the rest is perfectly sensible. The Septuagint errors that are often pointed out are almost all in the Tanakh non-Torah sections.

Jews aren't at the helm of enemy ships. We aren't enemies to Christians. We have our religion & it's okay with us if they have their's. We only tell them it's mistranslated IF & WHEN they shove their version at us telling us "we've got it wrong." Otherwise, maybe what they have is right for them. We just want to be left alone - so no enemies fighting.

===========

Rivky

I'm not reading all that. You were on your high horse every time you write "I can't speak for non-Orthodox" while suggesting they're using a Christian type source. You've done it a few times. It's not okay. You know perfectly well, or should research & figure out - Reform does not use Christian Tanakhs or any other such "sources."

As for the source of Reform, you're using a common Orthodox misconception. It started out as you seem to imply Christian attempts, then that didn't work. The next real increase was indeed Orthodox based but with significant changes. That was my point. There have been a number of Orthodox on here, who didn't realize where Reform was rooted, or what it was & said things like you have.

Back on implying Reform might use a Christian source for Tanakh. And Septuagint available now is a definitely a Christian source. That is why I wrote - it is an insult to a Jew to imply they use translations that generate the idea of Jesus or any physical "God", salvation, human sacrifice, etc.. It's an insult because it's a painful thought ---it's built in viscerally for Reform Jews too --- & not one I want put on me.

FYI, Reform Jews came out of Orthodox families. So before claiming it's Reform that's the problem, consider - it's Judaism as a whole that needs to deal with secularism & leaving. My grandfather was raised in Yeshiva - & turned his back on it. That's how we became not-Orthodox. That's how a lot of it happened. We the whole Jewish community has a problem & Orthodox pointing at only Reform isn't accurate & doesn't solve it all. We all contribute. You yourself have struggled with looking for new paths to traditional Orthodox (at least based on what you've said previously).

Sorry Rivky - blaming Reform Judaism for the Holocaust is a sorry thing. There have been many Orthodox here, that on interacting with Reform have discovered more respect for us. You don't seem willing to learn past the stereotypes you've swallowed.

Oh, you read the Greek Septuagint? Mazel Tov!

Most people read the Greek mistranslated into Latin mistranslated into (one of several) English mistranslations.....

Most Jews do not question the Septuagint translated under Ptolemaic force. We question the multiple translations that have occurred since.

Jews read the Original Hebrew. It is not a conspiracy theory. If you don't want to hear from Jews, then LEARN the Hebrew and read it for YOURSELF, if you truly care to know. But we both know that won't happen----- it's just so much easier to bait Jews with accusatory questions, isn't it?

If you don't like Jewish arguments, how about one from academics?

The passage whose translation history transmogrifies a Babylonian king into the Christian Lucifer uses a *cultural* translation from Greek religions, not a linguistic one. Whoever translated it read the phrase as one epithet of Venus, 'Morning Star' and 'translated' it with another one, 'Lightbringer'.

Now why on earth would a Jew do that? The error was in the Septuagint. The Vulgate repeated it, retaining 'lightbringer', lucis ferre.

And of course the original passage doesn't have a thing to do with Venus either. Someone was translating words and phrases without paying much attention to the meaning.

The problem is not with the translation into Greek -- the problem comes from the subsequent translations into Latin and then into German, English, Spanish, etc. For the first 1000 years of Christianity, only the priests were allowed to read and interpret the Hebrew and Christian Bibles. People learned only what the priests wanted them to learn. It wasn't until the 13th Century that congregants were allowed access to the Bibles.

However, Jews have been reading/teaching from the Hebrew Bible from the time Ezra and Nehemiah returned from Babylon. They began teaching Torah (in Hebrew) on market days 3/day per week -- a practice which continues to this day. You might say that it was Ezra who first introduced public education.

.

we stumble in this interior the Hebrew version of the Tanakh, as interpreted in accordance to Jewish custom for the reason that earlier the time of Jesus, if he existed - you will get a team of great solutions and internet site hyperlinks to this, Paperback author continuously coming with the aid of, however the fast version is that numerous the passages Christians think of seek advice from the messiah, Jews think of do no longer, that numerous the passages Christians think of seek advice from the messiah are mistranslations (the virgin delivery, e.g.), and that numerous the passages all of us agree communicate on the subject of the features of the messiah are interpreted in yet in a distinctive way by the two religions. certainly one of them is that Judaism has in no way chanced on something interior the e book we wrote and think of we get dibs on analyzing (i understand, lame argument, yet we experience that way) some return pass to. i ought to assert Paris Hilton hasn't fulfilled the prophecies yet ought to return in 3000 years and do it, despite if it would sound kinda goofy. it is how we expect of on the subject of the 2d coming of Jesus - it variety of feels fabricated placed up-Jesus, according to different close by religious ideals on the time, as a lame excuse for why the messiah did no longer do what the messiah is meant to do. Like carry peace in the worldwide. that is fairly no longer something very own approximately Jesus. we don't think of approximately Jesus, who isn't pronounced in Judaism. To a Jew, while the messiah comes there will be peace in the worldwide. we seem, there is not any peace in the worldwide, so all of us understand the messiah has no longer yet arrived. you will get better solutions no longer asking this on Yom Kippur, on which day i might choose to characteristic, i'm hoping my words have not indignant you and show regret in the event that they have; that became no longer my motive.

Very simple. The letter of Aristeas.

Read it. It took 72 days for them to complete the translation. That's fast even for the 5 books of the Torah...

Who do you think created the Christian 'old testament' - Jews?

Why on earth would Jews agree to CHANGE our own holy scriptures, so that a totally different faith could then use them to try and disprove Judaism???

It's hardly rocket science now, is it?

The OT was created by the Church. No Jews read or study it. The Septuagint, if that's what you're thinking of, was the Greek version of the Tanakh - Jews translated the Torah part BUT it's a matter of verifiable fact that the rest was translated by non Jews. This is something that experts on Christianity agree on - see the article on it here: http://www.outreachjudaism.org/

Rivky and cher was here.

Both of you have to relax!!

We are all Jewish, as in the movements ( conservative orthodox and reform)

just because some movements follow Torah less or more doesn't make us an less Jewish.

We believe in the same values and should respect eachother because of it.

I'm conservative I have been to all movements except reconstruction-est. And one thing for sure messianic Judaism is not Jewish. We should all know that. That movement is the problem and the one we should worry about.