Two part question on martial arts...?

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1. I feel that the martial arts as they are taught today are more complicated than they were long ago. by that, I mean to say that there are many stories of famous masters that only knew one, two or three Kata. Funakoshi made the comment that if a person knew only one Kata, but understood all the bunkai it contained, he would be a deadly fighter. Styles changed as arts began to be taught to groups. In past times many arts were passed on in secret and to one or a small select group. Training was basically the same as private lessons. As classes began to be taught to groups instruction began to be more regimented. Kata was instance originally had no set Kiai points. The old masters would Kiai "If" they felt it. When teaching groups the use of set points where a "Kiai" was to be done became the standard. this was to make the training more uniform and less distracting. In the old days, a student might be taught only one Kata. he would practice that Kata until l the master felt that he had a strong grasp of it. Then he might teach another Kata. In the old days belts ranks were not used. A student was known by the skill he demonstrated, not by some belt or title. There were on sport martial arts. The concept of such a thing would not have been something that they even considered. Martial arts were for use in Life threatening situations only. Instructors would not take anyone that wanted to study with them. Only students that the master felt were worthy, and trustworthy would be trained. Training was a integral part of daily life. It was nothing like the "Wind-up martial artists" of today. Instructors taught the whole art. Today students do not train enough hours for that to be practical of most students. As such less is being taught in most schools. Often that means that some high ranked instructors were not themselves taught all of their art. The fact that less is taught, and that most students are having a hard time perfecting the basics, means that most of the time the students and visitors that may watch only see a small part of what the art has to offer. This is why many people today think (incorrectly) that martial arts in general are specialized and are either more "stand-up", or "Ground" based. but one must remember that these arts were originally designed for life threatening situations. As such they could not have been effective if they did not teach all aspects of fighting. Before the MMA craze came up, no one ever used the terms "Stand-up", or "Ground game", ...etc.

Most people have at best (including many martial artists) a very limited view of the art they study. And why wouldn't they? It is very rarely ever taught or shown in its entirety.

2. The martial arts have been losing ethics, honor, and respect for a long time. It is not something recent. It is not something that the MMA craze has caused, although it has made it worse. You have only to visit a few martial arts schools to see this first hand. One very common example of this is the parents of children in the martial arts. how many times have you overheard one parent critiquing a student techniques. Yet they, themselves, have never studied they martial arts. Or the parents are critiquing the instructor, as if they know better than the instructor.

Bottom line here is that people don't train often or long enough to be able to master the basics. Therefore the instructors can't teach the more advanced aspects of the arts. Students and laymen have developed an attitude that they know what is what. They form opinions based on either a limited information base, or misunderstanding. They judge things without knowing all the facts.

Students come to the martial arts expecting to be promoted often and quickly. A young student is often under the false impression that because they were taught a technique a few days ago, they should be taught something new. to them learning the martial arts is not mastering anything. It is just memorizing as many new techniques, or Kata. they are always thinking about what is required for the next belt.

It is not wonder that the martial arts are more misunderstood than they ever have been.

To me many people attitude is downright ridiculous. I'm referring to the people that say that due to the martial arts popularity, many more students now study the martial arts. what they either forget, or don't get, is that while the number of schools and students has grown by leaps and bounds, the quality and depth of real knowledge and skills has decreased many times. In my estimation (totally my opinion based on 43 years of looking at the big picture) The average student at first degree black belt today, is about as knowledgeable and skilled as a mid level color belt as they were in the 1960's.

Just my opinion based on 43 years of watching the mess get worse.

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1. How many people believe that martial art systems were much simplier than they are today back in 1900, 1800's and 1700's? and why?

I think they were in general less specialized, because they were actually used for defense. Because of that they needed to cover a wider variety of attacks and defenses,

. With the current popularity of MMA do you feel that martial arts is losing the honor, respect, code of ethics and proper culture that made it so great? You better believe it.

1. IMO, yes and no. If some of the more isolated communities in Indonesia and their silat schools are anything to go by, it was much more simpler. There was a general understanding that martial arts were life-long endeavors and people who decided to train knew full well that they wouldn't turn into some sort of lethal fighting machine within a couple of weekends; students trained first and then asked questions later; any sort of competition or rivalry between schools were about actual merit; and there was much less bickering about organizations, competitive forms, marketing and promotion, etc.

But I agree that technique-wise, the martial arts were much more complex. And of course, instructors could afford to teach something that is more complex and detailed than what we have today - as most, if not all, students were in it for the long run, and there was a real sense of urgency to actually become proficient in actual combat techniques. Running a McDojo in the past would more than likely result in quiet a few fatal accidents.

2. Yes, in the sense that MMA, through its "take what works, discard what doesn't" approach, paints classical arts as systems with too many useless additions (mainly formal forms and any other traditional practices not obviously related to combat: the whole respect, ethics, and culture aspects of martial arts training). This has also helped reinforce the concept of traditional arts being specialized (e.g., you train in BJJ for the groundwork, Muay thai or karate for stand-up, etc.), and thus out of touch with reality.

Then we also have the "closest thing to real fighting" slogan. This is something which the general public of course agrees with; forgetting that a regulated match and actual self-defense are world's apart and involves a different range of mindsets, goals, and psychological as well as technical factors.

But all of this is about how the martial arts are perceived by modern society. IMHO, the culture of martial arts and values like honor, respect, and a code of ethics amongst practitioners, will always be an integral part of the classical arts; and will always be kept alive by those who stubbornly continue to practice it the way it was originally intended.

1. Martial arts has slowly lost it's tradition as it's spread across the world. Most schools have watered down versions of it. I would love to go back in time to train traditionally in the arts. Take an art like "wing chun" and watch everyones "siu lim tao"(1st form), I haven't yet seen any students from different schools do it the same, almost every teacher teaches it different. However not all change is bad, some variations of the styles have been more practical and useful. So I wouldn't say it was simpler because there are too many martial arts to make such a general statement like that, but I would say it was whole and traditional, which I like.

2. No I don't think MMA is destroying martial arts or anything that you listed, I think MMA is simply redefining how everyone looks at martial arts. The martial art now adapts to the fighter, instead of the fighter adapting to the martial art. Although I like to learn each martial art as traditionally as possible, I will naturally use what I find most useful and mix it up. The different martial arts will always have their own honor, respect, code of ethics, and culture behind them.

EDIT: @ nwohioguy: I like questions like this, because they open me up to different perspectives that I might have never thought of.

@ Sensei Scandal: Thank you for your compliment. I also agree that MMA is a reason parents frown upon signing their kids up. It changes the image of martial arts for the worse in this situation. Great answer for both questions, I enjoyed your answers.

1. simpler, yes and no

it was more efficient and effective back then

in the 1700's and 1800's styles were broken up by kata more. you only new one or two kata and that was your entire style. all your grappling, pressure points, striking, stand up, ground fighting, etc can from kata. training was more rigorous and effective. you lived or died by the techniques you knew. even just comparing training from the 1960's or 70's today there is a bog difference, there was much more full contact and less being worried about being sued as well as less need for insurance. i think one thing that ruined the industry is the the law suits and the dam lawyers, i would be teaching a lot more differently if it wasn't for that. people say its more water down, and it is for that very reason. i see many places turning more into a babysitting service then teaching martial arts. students more worrying about what belt they have rather then how good they are, or if they can actually fight.

most styles have more then 10 or 12 kata now, and students are all in a race to see how many kata they can learn, without learning the applications or the bunkai to any of them. really how many kata do you really need to know. and how many can you truly understand. knowing 60 kata without bunkai is completely useless.

yes martial arts is simpler if you dont teach the bunkai and just teach kata, and memorizing them without the meaning.

people say karate has no grappling because many instructors don't know the application to there kata.

sorry for the rant there, i'll stop here before i really go off.

2. yes i do feel that way, culture may not be as important, but respect and honor are. people see mma on tv and all the trash talk and the children start getting the wrong idea about martial arts. it has become more about entertainment then about the discipline, respect, honor and so-forth. they dont even show good sportsmanship any more. at least what little of it i have seen.

I don't see hy it should be a problem. I have trained at different martial arts on through the other and never have suffered any problems. However I would not advise starting both at the same time. You might get mixed up trying to master the basics of both at the same time. But when you have some decent experience in no matter what art. you have a basis and from that you can only build further. Broad experience is the best talent you can have

1. No. It is natural for people to look back to the "simple good old days" which really were never that good nor simple - just nostalgic. The ultimate expression of sophistication is simplicity, but the problem is that simplicity is subjective. Try teaching a 9 year old the concept of multiplications and they look at you as if you were teaching them quantum mechanics. I believe also that a MA system that is relevant go through perpetual cycle of changes in discovery, incorporation, and simplification. Something similar to the philosopical idea of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis.

2. Yes, but only temporarily (I hope). All new generations like to believe their vision is the ultimate and better. Only later to realize they need to take a second look at what they ignored. MMA is very popular and the young culture that it spawns thinks this is the way and that the credo of honor, respect, etc. are old fashion. But if MMA wants to survive, it will have to re-discover the ethics that enable the other martial arts to survive for so long.

I feel they were much more technical back in the 1700's. (Okinawan Arts)

That was the end of the development days of Toudijutsu. When they began to teach the public and in the school system, they excluded the things that made it deadly.

The Chinese Arts were also much more dedicated to expanding knowledge.

These days, what is taught is the apparently obvious technique, without all of the concepts and theories that give them their true essence.

Consider the Bubishi and its Poem of the Eight Fists -

- The mind is one with heaven and earth.

- The circulatory rhythm of the body is similar to the cycle of the sun and the moon.

- The way of inhaling and exhaling is hardness and softness.

- Act in accordance with time and change.

- Techniques will occur in the absence of conscious thought.

- The feet must advance and retreat, separate and meet.

- The eyes must not miss even the slightest change.

- The ears listen well in all eight directions.

These Precepts are proof of the complexity of the arts in the past.

I make sure anyone I teach learns these precepts by memory.

So I believe that the arts were much more complex than today. After all, most people who are "masters" don't know how to use their art.

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We have seen many kids come here asking how to get their parents to enroll them in a martial arts program. Those of us who are parents can only imagine why these parents are refusing to send them.

I speculate, but I feel assured that I am right when I say that those parents are judging all arts according to what they have heard or seen on TV. Just like the kids who say Karate is useless because what they know as Karate is the BS that passes for it out here.

These parents are seeing the frenzy of the fans, how they get almost savage-like. After all, this is what the media portrays. They see how all the fanboys wear their tapout shirts and walking around as if they can kick the world's asss.

They don't want their kids to act that way. They don't want them to get hurt or killed in a backyard fight. We parents DO KNOW what is good for our children.

Throwing us into that barrel makes us look as if we're no better to some, but many also know there is a difference between us and them.

We are being blatantly disrespected by the MMA community... constantly! We only have to look here but also the scumbag dana white is the source of the disrespect. And the Gracies too! They get offended when people down-talk their art but they started the initial disrespect.

That's why I would never support any of their endeavors. I will not give ONE DIME to dana white or the gracies. That's the way they market their product to the ignorant.

So no - we are not losing the honor, respect, etc... at least not from the Intelligent. Only that the disrespect from the MMA community is so loud that it drowns out everyone who is level headed.

Edit:

@Derek - excellent answer.

1 No. There is only so much or only so many ways you can manipulate the human body. But I believe school in the early 1900's, 1800's and so on emphasized those aspects of an art that their sensie was highly skilled at. As a result there were more styles often restricted by travel.

2 From what I can tell I don't believe that the arts are losing honor, respect, ethics, etc. I do believe some practioners do not honor and respect other styles but that has always been there in the arts and between cultures. What I do see is those individuals in this forum who disrespect arts and my guess is they are very low level practioners or practice no art at all, it's all mouth and no muscle.

#1

A long time ago kung fu students had to do 1 year of the horse stance before they could start learning forms. Martial arts is definitely more lax now.

#2

Nope our couture may change a bit from time to time to become more modern but most traditions like bowing to masters and past masters. I don't really see mma as martial arts. It is probably just me but it didn't really feel like actual martial arts. To be fair it is not my place to criticize mma seeing how I have seen very few fights.