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Shienaran asked in SportsMartial Arts · 1 decade ago

Does shotokan kata incorporate weapons applications?

By application, I mean weapons handling, not disarms. I've just been wondering, since aside from strikes, there are grappling, throwing and pressure point applications in kata, I was wondering if the kata also has specific weapons techniques in them as well. I remember seeing Kobudo demos on video by Fumio Demura sensei back in the late 80s that resembled empty hand kata, only it was done while using the Sai, Tonfa, Bo and Nunchaku. And my Aikido training incorporated a lot of Sword and Jo movements into the empty hand techniques, not to mention my experience in Kali training. I'm just getting familiar with the basic Heian Kata now, but I recognize some movements with those of Jo techniques and possibly Tonfa which might explain some peculiar arm movements I see.

Update:

The first 6 movements in Heian Nidan for example would make more sense to me if you held either a Bo, Sai, Tonfa or Nunchaku in your hand while performing them. An overhead block followed by a sideways strike to the head, then the same for the opposite side before a back kick simultaneously with another sideways strike(could also be a thrust for a Bo) to the rear.

Update 2:

@Fat Cobra: Actually, the first thing that came to mind when I learned the first movements in Heian Nidan was that it resembled Aikido techniques involving Ushiro katate mune dori or counters to someone attacking with a rear choke while grabbing your wrist from behind. But since it's a bit more complex and involves a lot of movements, I thought a weapons application would be simpler and more direct. I'll take a look at Bassai Dai, though it's probably a high level kata for me, since I'm still at the basics, but thanks for the suggestion.

Update 3:

@Shihan J: I stand corrected, it is a yoko geri not a back kick, I kept thinking of a side kick to the rear and ended up typing back kick.

@Sifu Frank: I can certainly relate to you, since as I've stated, my previous Aikido training required us to train with sword and Jo which translated into our empty hand applications, but I always thought Karate was pure empty hand applications in the past, which is why this made me rethink my assumption

Update 4:

edit: @Fat Cobra: I have considered experimenting on the kata with my Aikido training, but since I'm still focused on mastering the kata I figured it would just be a distraction from the task at hand. But perhaps in the future I'd be able to. The only reason I'm even trying to figure and work out the Bunkai for it is so I can perform the kata properly with the proper breathing, hip action and intent behind every movement, instead of just going from one pose to the other, I find it easier to remember and learn the forms that way.

Update 5:

Hmmmm.....I just realized the first 4 movements in Heian Nidan can also be used for a Nunchaku application. Though a bit iffy since you need to twirl it under your armpit across your back over your opposite shoulder before launching a gyaku yoko menuchi or back handed sideways strike immediately after the overhead block, but it does the job of conveying the idea for the arm and hip movement.

5 Answers

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  • Kokoro
    Lv 7
    1 decade ago
    Favorite Answer

    jitte or jutte your suppose to be able to use with a bo

    chinte there is also a weapon called chinte, which are bamboo sleeves that would wrap around the arm, i dont think this is any coincidence.

    chizakun, jiffa, hoko, techu and tekko as well as many other small less know weapons could easy be used with almost any empty hand kata

    Okinawan taught and passed on there techniques through kata. and considering there are over 40 weapons with only a small hand full having traditional kata the only other alternative is they used them with karate kata

    as for the the heian nidan making more sense to you with a weapon, it make a lot more sense as a grappling kata, there is no back kick in heian nidan its a side kick

    the opening move can be anything from a simple pushing of your opponents 2 arms who is coming in for a push or grab, to locking up his arms and redirecting him bring him down to the floor.

    kobudo is a far older art then karate, kobudo came first and dates back much further then karate.

    Sensei Funakoshi did teach kobudo, the main 2 weapons were bo and sai

    Source(s): 30+yrs ma
  • Anonymous
    1 decade ago

    Yes, it does. I don't know of any entirely formal syllabus that contains weapons specific kata as there really were no kata for weapons. Weapons training was very much a pick it up and do. Kobudo is that term (with weapons), and weapons have often, because of that, been infused in preexisting kata for the training purposes.

    Some people in the more modern times, have created kata for a specific weapon, but most are just flashiness.

    EDIT - that's a good way to look at it with fitting in a weapon in the kata. One thing you need to keep in mind is that these techniques are applicable with your hands only, so if you do not see an application that is empty-handed that works and you like; you need to dig deeper or even from a completely different frame of thought.

    A great kata that works with the sai is Bassai Dai. Give that one a look.

    But don't forget to look into your kata with concepts and not just individual techniques. Keep in mind that the techniques need to be simple, and they should rely on proper mechanics more than speed or strength. When that is in place and the concept is understood, the timing and position will fall into place naturally.

    Thanks for a good question! :)

    EDIT - One more thing. If you look at the common bunkai for Heian Nidan, you will notice that everybody likes to leave the right arm just hanging in the air as some prepatory thing for a following punch. That's not a functional application for that technique. Every limb has a purpose and is actively engaged in something. If you think about that application (easily found on YouTube) you can find that it's full of holes; and primarily the giant one on the right side of the torso. It's like holding a red flag saying "hit me here... In my liver!" those arms rise in that pattern for something else and that something will take your opponent's weapons away from that gargantuan vulnerable hole, while inflicting some sort of pain and or damage. Every move serves an active function!

    EDIT - Bassai Dai is a mid-level kata, so it may be a while before you come across it.

    Why not experiment with your Aikido training in the application of the first six movements in Heian Nidan? I know I'd be interested to hear your progress on an application for that; even if by email.

    EDIT - That's a great way to understand your kata! There is no better way to learn the technique than actually applying the technique! That's old school too!

  • Anonymous
    5 years ago

    Just going to add to what has been stated that all kata has grappling in it. Some instructor may not know or teach it. Weapons: A weapon is just an extension of the body. Any strike with the weapon the defense in the same as if there was no weapon. The only difference is the disarmament which is the same as with any pain compliance. There is more involved, but this is the gist of it. Mentally we change when a weapon is implied. If a knife is a thrust like a punch why would I defend any different. If it is a slash like yokomen uchi why would I defend any different. A bat, pipe, etc the defense is the same. Don't get hit. Move into your range of effectiveness, control the attack, and remove the threat.

  • 1 decade ago

    I have only seen these Kata mention here at tournaments. So I'm not an expert in Shotokan.

    I know from experience that weapons can be applied in pomise in Taekwando where appropriate. We train with weapons in Dan Gun through Juoon Gun using a Knife, Sai, and a Short stick. When the student elects after that a favorite weapon we encourage they experament under Masters guidence on appropriat aplications. I'm glad you brought this up. I thought we were unique in this regard. It seems the natural thing to do and My Master has been doing this for decades as he learned it from his Masters in Philadelphia and Vietnam.

    It feels natural to me that many moves translate into weapons Kata easily.

    Source(s): life
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  • 1 decade ago

    Don't forget that they are Shuri kata and Shinken Taira learn under Funakoshi for a while.

    Ryukyu Kobujutsu is very compatible with the Shuri and Tomari kata, so whether your dojo teaches it or not, it's in there!

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