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killer peaches bored tyrant
Lv 7
killer peaches bored tyrant asked in Entertainment & MusicMusicRock and Pop · 1 decade ago

Extreme Metal.. can too clean of production RUIN IT?

I started thinking about this based off a question one of my R&P pals (ShreDoktor) asked, which had to do with a "Black" Metal band called Winterhorde, of which he is very fond of, and most of the rest of us were kinda... ambivalent toward. The problem, for me was because the production was so clean.

It works nice to have ultra crispy production value in Visual Kei, Power Metal, Prog, Some of the more Operatic styles of Symphonic Metal, but IMO, I think it detracts from heavier stuff, like Doom, Death and Black Metal. Don't get me wrong..I think all too often the "Atmosphere" argument a lot of Raw Black Metal fans espouse is a bunch of crap trying to explain away poor production hiding poor musicianship, as atmosphere can is achieved more through the songwriting than whether or not some idjit recorded it in the woods on a WalMart tape deck.

My thought is.. Extreme Metal is rather like having an argument. It should be rude, angry, abrupt and not too thought out. How attention grabbing would it be to have someone say they are mad at you, then they "Yell" at you in a perfectly calm, measured tone, using perfect syntax, pacing, grammar and speech?

Doesn't really come off as angry does it? But if they are frothing at the mouth, forget words, cuss, sometimes don't make sense and shouting harshly at the top of their lungs.... one tends to buy into the individual being genuinely pissed, (though one can go too far, where pretty much there is nothing valid said, just a bunch of juvenile cussing... we have all seen that... well, I consider stuff like Suicide Silence the musical equivalent.) right?

So it is at least to me with Extreme Metal.. too clean of production bleeds the raw emotion, the anger or whatever is supposed to be fueling it out, and you end up with a really shiny, but not very believable piece of music.

"Clean Produced Extreme Metal"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJp1DWD6Dws

"Dirty Produced Extreme Metal"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjr3le5GXBc&feature...

What do you think? For "Extreme" Metal.. can too clean of production hurt it as bad as bad production can hurt stuff like Power Metal?

BQ: Favorite "Dirty" sounding Metal band?

(Bolt Thrower for me)

BQ2: Favorite "Clean" Sounding Metal band?

(Iron Maiden baby!)

(Also this is not saying he is wrong, and I am right, just some thoughts I had that came up from his Q, to which I was curious how other people felt)

Update:

@Peace Sells.. actually, they did have a choice in the 80s. Listen to 1984's Powerslave album. Even today, the mixing stnads up, the instruments are distinct, and every instrumental track is easy to follow.

Conversely, look at 2003's St Anger, where they intentionally used few mikes, stuff was left out of tune, the bass was recorded though the drum mikes, all to give it more of a live, impromptu feel. (Not saying this to tout the merits of St Anger, just an easy, obvious example of intentional poor sound mixing to create an "Atmosphere". Even Progressive acts like Ihsahn and Agalloch intentionally use a "fuzz" sounding, instead of clinically precise sound mix intentionally to build an atmosphere, whereas Dream theater, Maiden, Nightwish and others go for such a high standard of mixing that every note of every individual track is easily heard, and no one thing drowns out another.

Update 2:

@Shred.. never said who's side of the argument had more validity... just which sounded more extreme or angry. A person can be well chastised in a very polite, succinct manner, but it ain't gonna wake up the neighbors and shock people like a good drunken white trash domestic dispute. THAT is the point of Extreme Metal. It's meant to be a biker brawl, not the eloquent elocution one would hope to get in a good court case.

There is a time, and a place for both.

Update 3:

@Peace Sells, in your argument, you never said anything about unknown vs big money bands. Just that old 80s bands had no choice, and that new bands pretty much always shoot for hi fidelity production. I was pointing out that neither, is actually the case, at least all the time.

Update 4:

@ Shred Dok.... you have a healthy love for all thing Japanese..... are you familiar with the philosophy, or aesthetic, of Wabi-sabi?

THAT, in a nutshell perfectly defines what happens when one cleans things up to much, over produces, and knocks off the rough edges completely. If one polishes all the edges off a diamond, you would have a sphere.... but you would also have no facets that would catch the light and cause the fire within to ignite, and excite. Likewise..if left in their native state, a diamond is just a greasy looking lump of yellowish rock.

But a master jeweler takes a comprehensive look at the stone, and defines the flaws, which in turn define how he will cut and polish the stone. And so every diamond comes out unique, some with more facets, some with less, but with the degree of work and polishing varying from one stone to another, because to bring out the maximum beauty on each, one must be able to see and feel it's flaws.

Music, is no different. Once you polis

Update 5:

@ Shred Dok.... you have a healthy love for all thing Japanese..... are you familiar with the philosophy, or aesthetic, of Wabi-sabi?

THAT, in a nutshell perfectly defines what happens when one cleans things up to much, over produces, and knocks off the rough edges completely. If one polishes all the edges off a diamond, you would have a sphere.... but you would also have no facets that would catch the light and cause the fire within to ignite, and excite. Likewise..if left in their native state, a diamond is just a greasy looking lump of yellowish rock.

But a master jeweler takes a comprehensive look at the stone, and defines the flaws, which in turn define how he will cut and polish the stone. And so every diamond comes out unique, some with more facets, some with less, but with the degree of work and polishing varying from one stone to another, because to bring out the maximum beauty on each, one must be able to see and feel it's flaws.

Music, is no different. Once you

Update 6:

polish Punk too much and instead of the Clash, you get Green Day or Blink 182. With Metallica you go from Master of Puppets... to Load.

Each genre and style of music has it's defining traits and "flaws" and these are what makes them unique and interesting. Production and mixing is very much one of these traits.

(OK..why the heck did it double post.)

For all your love of the Asiatic aesthetic, it seems you really love to define music more mby the Western, or "Greek" school of symmetry and beauty, often captured by concepts liek the "Golden Ratio"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

anyhow.. different stroke for different folks

Update 7:

So what you are saying is you like the crappy westernized version of Japan that pines for the days pre WW2?

13 Answers

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  • tron
    Lv 6
    1 decade ago
    Favorite Answer

    well, i'm sure you can guess my opinion on the matter, especially in the blackened generes...When i heard Winterhorde, i had similar thoughts...the musical aspects where there, everything seemed good, but something didn't sit right with me...and i think its just too polished.

    I do think with some death metal especially the technical death metal bands, it has to be cleaner than a band like Agalloch where technical aspects don't matter as much. I know you have mentioned that crappy production shouldn't = "atmosphere" and i agree thats not the only requirement, but those scuzzy sounds i think add to the mood as each distinct note isn't heard, but the total sound blends nicely to create that atmospheric melody.

    conversly, can you imagine if a band like Necrophagist (who i think have relatively good production) alll of a sudden produced an album with early darkthrone BM qualities? the whole point of technical death metal is to hear how good they are with their instruments, and if you just hear a wall of sound from poor production, then there is not point to their style....

    ...so going back to the original question, i do think some extreme metal bands should be cleaner in production if the band wants the listener to hear every distinct riff/note/symbol crash, etc.....

    However, imo, that should be up to a certain point..too clean just doesn't sound right to me. I prefer that old school death metal which was cleaner than bm but still had a rough edge to it...all those Swedish death metal acts like Entombed, Dismember, Necrophobic had that scuzzy guitar tone that made it "rough", even Atheist- Unquestionable presence wasn't the cleanest of production

    BA: i do like alot of dirty sounding bands...but i guess one that pushes the limits of poor production that i really enjoy

    Taake

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtBZfsQuJKE

    BA2: hmmm, i could say Megadeth, except their first few albums had pretty terrible production, so aside from Rust in Peace, i think they are excluded...so how about

    Blind Guardian

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8Cxyd3VxbQ&feature...

  • wakemeup
    Lv 6
    1 decade ago

    You pretty much answered your own question. I agree. This is also the reason many modern death, thrash and black metal bands don't sound as angry and the ones in the 80s/early 90s. All I'll add is that a raw sound, when done well, can make anything from prog to black sound really good, not just extreme metal. Quite a few NWOBHM and US style power metal bands have made great use of a raw sound. It adds a really aggressive 'ballsy' feel to the music when added to riff oriented music. I do agree that some bands take it really too far, to the extent of assaulting ears, like many bedroom black metal bands, which I'll assume is the raw BM you're talking about and not awesome schtuff like Burzum and Darkthrone. Yeah, raw BM bands might hide poor musicianship using raw production, but is that really a bad thing? Heck, new Burzum isn't nearly as fun as old school Burzum because the sound is too melodic and too clean. And as Varg isn't proficient enough, I can clearly hear through the flaws of the album. Plus, the clean vocals just kill any of the ominous feel Burzum had originally. Of course that hasn't got much to do with the sound, but I'm just ranting here.

    In the end, excess of anything is not good. Too raw can take away from bands that require a polished sound, and too clean can hurt bands that need a raw sound.

    BA: Gorgoroth

    BA2: Judas Priest

  • Anonymous
    1 decade ago

    BA: Emperor

    BA2: Iron Maiden all the way!

    To be honest, noise/fuzz is a tool which can reward a lot of great atmosphere to what would otherwise be a very average result. Ever tried 'Walknut'? It's almost 100% necessary in black metal. But usually you can hear when it's forced.

    Try 'Crow Black Sky' out, they're pretty new (Only about a year old), and from South Africa. It's actually kind of similar to Winterhorde in a way. Doesn't sound messy but doesn't quite sound clean either... Still has a fairly raw sound to it, especially vocal-wise. The most surprising thing is their variety - The different tracks seem to have vastly different genre influences (Prog, groove, death), but still retains those great blackened metal qualities.

    Atmosphere is everything. Raw production gives atmosphere

    Source(s): www.crowblacksky.com
  • Anonymous
    1 decade ago

    Gosh, much as I hate to prove you right about me, in this case, at this particular time, you are. I much preferred the Winterhorde song. It was a lot farther up my alley than the Bolt Thrower song was. But I don't always like crispy clean production. Def Leppard's late period albums are so polished and overproduced they make me sick. But I love stuff that's produced dirty as a cob like old Witchfyde and Venom. I guess it just....depends on the band, a clean production just lends itself to some band's sounds, and others just sound better dirty.

    BA: Black Sabbath, they're downright murky at times.

    BA2: Zebra, they sound like a crystal cathedral.

    P.S,

    The Winterhorde track, while I really liked it, isn't what I'd call Extreme Metal, at all. It was more like a Symphonic or Power Metal track, that's why I liked it.

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  • Jon
    1 decade ago

    BA1: Morbid Angel

    BA2: Iron Maiden :D

    I do like prog metal too, among other less hardcore genres. What prog really is is suped up jazz minus the brass section and added guitar solos, etc. It's a whole different mentality.

    I'm also a huge fan of Between The Buried And Me. I think they keep the hardcore in more polished metal.

  • Peace Sells....and im buying!
    Lv 6
    1 decade ago

    hmm...some power /power prog bands sound a little extra cheesy with clean/flawless production...i dont mind clean production in black metal based music (looks like v dont think alike at all :P) ....and i dint understand what u mean by 'clean produced'...or maybe i see it differently! u mean a dirty sludgy song cannot be produced cleanly?? how about this :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkF4JD2rO3Q

    i actually dont understand the difference btwn a clean and a dirty production (obviously the old 80s stuff is not cleanly produced..that's bcz they had no choice back then...but now every band sort of tries to get the best sound)

    would u call this a badly produced album? :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6WGNd8QR-U

    i dont think so...i think the clean/sludgy nature depends on the band...they choose it...and if its the production that makes a clean song sound not clean...well..something like this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OhOm-1m3D8

    perhaps one of the badly produced albums (recent) that comes to mind is nevermore's enemies of reality..but they quickly released a remastered version..

    BA1 : Black Sabbath

    BA2 : Nevermore (they've always had a clean tone..but not the production)

    now u'll notice with nevermore as well that their old (pre 99) songs were not so cleanly produced..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iI7C1Y_GM4&feature...

    and u see their new ones :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFU4ulcO6tM

    (this one is really dirty..but sounds very cleanly produced)

    At the end of the day ...this is how i define clean and not clean production

    clean production :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL8WH-fd4SY

    dirty production :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqFn0dMZymc

    (production is different...but both bands are not supposed to sound clean!!)

    ****@KP : Maiden was a big band by 84!...im pretty sure they had access to 'good production'..unlike other unknown bands of that era..

    ***well yeah...u got a point there..some bands do make the production not so clean on purpose...especially bands that have a black metal vibe..

    but these modern extreme metal bands are able to release albums that have good production..

  • Nero
    Lv 6
    1 decade ago

    I prefer extreme metal to have lo-fi production, it just fits the music better, especially black metal as it makes the vocals sound so distant and eerie. Obviously if the production is too bad then thats not desirable, but in general I like it to be slightly on the poor side, it also makes the guitars sometimes sound like buzzsaws which can be pretty cool. If production is too clean the raw guitar tone which really suits extreme metal is gone and instead you have guitars that sound too clean for the music they are playing. The vocals also tend to stand out too much, and imo black metal vocals work best when they sound like echoes in the background and fairly low in the mix.

    BQ: Drudkh

    BQ2: Tool

  • Anonymous
    1 decade ago

    That's what turns me off to the majority of power and prog metal. It is wayyyy too clean for me. Too much treble in the mix, too crisp, etc. I agree that too clean of production can ruin an album just as much as too little production.

    BA: Eyehategod

    BA2: I go with Iron Maiden too.

  • DasShredDoctor
    Lv 5
    1 decade ago

    In my personal opinion, every music out there, from synth-pop to brutal death metal is improved by better production. I honestly don't hear what people are talking about when they say it's "overproduced". just because you're angry doesn't mean you have to sound like you're a hobo, lol. As good as that Bolt Thrower song is, I think it would sound better if they re-recorded it using the best and newest recording equipment. Also, to go along with your "argument" simile, if two guys are having an argument in front of me, I'd rather back the one with the more intelligent, thought out insults.

    BQ: not sure if they'd be considered dirty, the main reason I like them so much is because they have relatively good production quality, even in their early days, Chthonic

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FrwF6nOoqg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuPMzNCJt1M (I guess this one's kinda raw)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GjHXCUnhYI

    BQ2: VERSAILLES!!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAXjoe_ghqE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yFGNqYGVEY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_WI0VI7aIw&feature...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AamRHOdfJ6U

    ***ok, but to be fair, once they get to the guttural part of their song, Winterhorde still sounds angry, they just don't sound like they're talking through the mic at a drive through... will add to rebuttal later, but right now I really gotta run.

    ***hey, Blink 182 is NOT in any way a more polished form of the Clash. If I liked punk, I would be extremely offended by that statement. Blink 182 is POP, not punk, and Load is hard rock, while Master of Puppets is thrash metal (I know I shouldn't have to explain that... but it seems I have no choice). If you want to compare how recording quality affects the music overall, compare two songs of the same genre (isolate the manipulated variable).

    compare:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqiTNHJVp9E

    to:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja1AOyXr9Z4

    ...I personally prefer the re-recording

    and one thing to clarify: while I do really like Japan, I like modern Japan. I have almost no interest in any event that happened in the world pre-WWII

    ***westernized? they're one of the few countries that are actually having a cultural influence on the USA. sure they've borrowed a few western Ideas, but they've greatly improved on them, wheras pre-WWII, they were pretty much the same as China.

    ***and can't believe I just noticed this: Crappy?!?!?!?! that's below the belt.

  • ronnyrogersroy
    1 decade ago

    clean production has no place in extreme metal

    its whole purpose is to be filthy, putrid and raw

    BQ1: Darkthrone, uncontested. incredible discography spanning a wide variety of genres, no really bad albums (even goatlord is pretty cool). the greatest "extreme" metal band of all time

    BQ2: Reverend Bizarre, lords of doom

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