Christians; finish this argument please.?

there are three ways to think about it:

Chance: No well respected scientist these days believes that the universe just came into change and the fact that even the slightest chance in an electron would have made it so that life was non existent

Multi verse: even though it scientifically would explain the universe, there is no actual proof of it and it just turns in to the idea of a god.

God: this is one makes the most sense to me, because even if a multiverse did exist, it would explain the laws of nature, but not the laws of a multiverse, thus if you believe that the laws of nature are created by an infinite amount of universes, then how does that explain the fact that there are thousands of universes and the rules that follow with them. there's a reason that the 2/3rds of the world's scientists believe in a personal or not personal god. Also the idea of DNA, which is like a computer hard drive in our blood and that fact that life can evolve to meet its surroundings. Even the idea of self reproduction is a problem, because if a cell was created and at the same time it was able to reproduce, then how could it evolve to the point to where it can have intercourse with another sex? and how could an cell that self reproduces it's genes, create separate cretures? i believe in evolution, just a theistic one

God of the gaps theory has many holes, the biggest one is that just because we can explain a law, it can't be created by god! and second my argument isn't about god of the gaps because laws of nature can and will never be explained, it's like asking "why does law of gravity make it so an object falls and doesn't float?" they are just laws, you can either explain these laws with the multiverse theory or by god, the only difference is faith

there are many amazing books out that talk about god in scientific terms, they convinced me to convert me, maybe they will you! read the book by Antony Flew called "There is a God" that one is amazing because it makes a really good case for God and Jesus. The reason i like that book is because it was written by the world's most famous atheist who converted and if you want to read books about god, you want to read ones written by being who converted from atheism to theism or deism in Anotn Flew's case

This is definitely an interesting question. I would say it a different way though. I would say that I cannot see how anything but God could have done this great work.

The gift of life also applies here for me. I cannot see anything/anyone else but God bringing such a miracle.

Getting back to "your" conversation, I really do see that there is a reason for everything that God has put on this Earth---even though I may not know the reason for every one thing. I mean look at nature---there is a lot of it that doesn't seem to have a "purpose" and some is even threatning, but would I want the beauty of it changed---NO.

To be completely honest with you, I often find a lot of Atheists very negative and it is rather draining. But, on the plus side, I also find a lot of Atheists who are respectful of my beliefs and who have big hearts.

I prefer the cosmological and ontological arguments for demonstrating the existence of God. But the best teleological argument is the "fine tuning" one. Christians don't have to argue that the universe is perfect (the Genesis creation stories may not be literal, but they do clearly state that creation is now imperfect). The different physical constants of the universe set just so could be argued to suggest that the universe was intelligently set up to produce life.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that an imperfect creation seems reasonable. After all, if the creator is perfect, and so is the creation, then how do we have two distinct entities? We don't. Imperfection was necessary for there to be a creation in the first place.

The larger questions of who am i; how did I get here and where am I going? are all a big part of this discussion. God created things for a reason and purpose. He created time and matter to hold a context that which we call reality. Quantum physics declares we know of at least 10 dimensions but many can only be determined by their influence on the ones we can experience. God is supposed to be outside of the contexts of this creation in that He pre existed it and created it. Although he does occupy all of it in an real presence as well as an intellectual and spiritual one. The universe and worlds we experience God considered them to be good he did not declare them perfect. In fact he promised these ones would be destroyed and new ones that will be perfect will replace them. The signature of the artist is visible in his handy work and all life has the same type of DNA RNA relationship. The assembly of living things into there various chemical make ups is astounding. Think of all the different types of cells we have and to think that it is blueprinted as a whole on every single cell this is a tough call to think that this type of intelligence would self organize. The atheist must believe matter came from non matter and energy somehow could have always existed in the natural world. The Christian believes God framed this Universe by power and wisdom and has given and formed life. The fact that only one life form has become self aware and is even having this debate is quite another problem. We see genetic information only passes on what is already present in the gene pool. The leap to self awareness is quite a break through. The bible teaches we were endowed with dominion over creation and our evil tendencies are in fact an inherited characteristic form Adam. The nature videos seem to agree as they end with the pathetic bird wrapped in fishing line or covered in oil and the narrator says all things are in harmony except one man...If you compile a list of random chance factor required for earth to host life as we know it ...we see a number so large that it is not random. God made this great display as a witness to man that he is there as all cultures had the concept of God and right and wrong. God entered this context through Jesus and the prophets of old to basically provide a meaning for life which is to be reconciled to God and participate in eternal life or judgment. The stake of this argument are much higher than our origins but have to do with our futures.

Certainly one could make the argument that even the most poisonous plants and most venomous snakes are today the sources of our most powerful healing drugs. But quite obviously the world (and the universe itself) is not perfect. However imperfection is not any sort of indication that God does not exist. It all depends on what God's purpose was to create the universe. An imperfect universe could very well be part of His perfect plan.

If the universe WERE perfect there would be no possible way that anyone could deny that God actually exists. That knowledge would remove all free will from our decisions. I believe that we are here to learn love, and love by its nature MUST be freely given. One cannot "force" anyone to love them and still have it be love. Christ's message of love would be in vain because it would be unlikely for us to do else-wise.

Our relationship with God is a personal one. So when you use your powers of reason or observation to apply judgment to others, you must take into account that you don't know the whole story, you don't know what the needs of other souls are, you don't know how to be the perfect judge.

When you wonder about the causes of suffering and misery in this world, the best test case you can apply is yourself.

Ask yourself this:

Did God make you the way you were meant to be?

Has God been merciful to you?

Has God been generous with you?

Has God punished you in any ways? Consider what those ways might be, why, and what the purpose of such treatment might be.

It's easy to say "Well my television says that people are suffering and dying all over the world by the millions, so I have millions of grievances against God".

(Don't mistake me; I am not denying that there is unmeasurable grief and suffering in this world)

But what you really need to do is take a look at what God has done for you. I suspect you have unmeasurable reasons to be grateful to God and His abundant generosity. I suspect your body and mind are a wonder to you, and a source of pleasure and amazement. I suspect you have been forgiven for most of the wrongs you have ever committed.

And I suspect that if you think about it really seriously, it will blow your mind to try and imagine the cost of bringing you here to this very moment of choice in your life.

Don't judge what God is doing to others. You are not a competent judge. Judge by what God has done for you. You are not a competent judge of that, either, but it gets you closer to the truth.

EDIT: You misunderstand my point. I am not making a case for the existence of God. It is God who will make you believe or not. What I am pointing out is that you should be honest when you look at what God has done, and you should look at what you know. Just because God has been good to you does not mean He loves you better. But before you go criticizing so-called imperfections in the universe, take a moment to be thankful for how good you have it.

The universe is orchestrated perfectly in that there is order. However, you're right in your observation that there are things that are obviously "messed up." That is due to the entrance of sin into the world so many ages ago. It's a curse upon the whole universe. That's why we have mutations, sicknesses, freaks of nature happening in nature itself. The world is falling apart.

To the genuine believer, despite all of this, there remains the manifestation of God's love and His power through it all. There is an order, but it is falling apart due to wickedness and sin. (Call me whatever you want, but I'm giving you a respectable answer.)

For instance, consider how "like begets like." Humans don't give birth to snakes or puppies. We give birth to humans. Plants produce after their likeness, as does the rest of nature. Again, there are mutations, but refer to my aforementioned argument.

With regard to other planets supporting life, I can't stand here and pretend to know "Oh yeah, once upon a time it did." I don't know that. All I know is that this special planet can, and I'm grateful for that.

If the world was perfect, there would be no need for heaven.

Jeremiah 29:11- For I know the plans I have for you," says the Lord. "They are plans for good and not for disaster, to give you a future and a hope.

Humans only have small narrow minded view while the Lord has the entire view.

The Lord alows humans to understand His greatness. If He didn't, then how would anyone praise Him? No human has all the answers, including myself. However, I do know that there is a God and Jesus is my Savior.

Good question, Fretless.

The thing is, there is no "logic" behind the whole intelligent design argument - it is faith, not logic! The only logic would be:

"oooooh gosh look at this beautiful nature I've spent too much time indoors so when I come out, nature amazes me and I think I am too stupid to understand that it created itself, so I'll take the easy route and say someone created it all, instead."

Nope, you can't win this kind of argument using just definitions. You can't jump from definition to fact, because facts are based on observations. And no one has ever observed a theist god. Actually, don't even try winning an argument with an atheist. Atheists have trumped theists for hundreds of years.