Does anybody else think The biggest mistake Harley ever made was not making Eric Buell their lead engineer?

HD have gotten themselves painted into a corner. The V-Rod is a perfect example. They build a modern bike around a modern engine. And what happens? Non-HD riders won't buy it because it's not sporting enough and most traditional HD riders won't buy it because, you guessed it, it's not traditional. Everyone blasts HD for not building modern engines, but they already did that and it doesn't sell well, to put it mildly. Even if their air cooled engine isn't "modern" by other manufacturers standards, that's what their customers demand. HD management isn't stupid by any means and they sure don't want to pull a "Studebaker". Studebaker built economical, dependable, long lived cars with medium sized engines, which is what the buying public needed. The problem was, that's not what the buying public wanted, they wanted something with a big, gas guzzling engine and covered with lots of chrome. GM, Ford and Chrysler built the latter and who is still in business today? It sure ain't Studebaker. The cardinal rule of any business venture is if you give the customer what they wan, they'll buy it regardless of how ridiculous it is. Producing a product the public doesn't want to buy is a sure path to bankruptcy.

As to Buell, yes, they had some very innovative ideas. But many of those same ideas were not traditional (the front disc brake for example) and as I said, tradition is what HD customers want. And if they were selling like hotcakes, there is no way HD would have closed shop on them. But they did, so what does that tell you?

And for the HD bashers, get out on the open road and take notice that by far the greatest percentage of bikes are HD, not Jap bikes (like mine) or sport bikes. Bash all you want to, but what does that tell you? Hard to argue with success.

Eric buell is a great engineer. The v-twin is a wonderful engine. Well suited for motorcycles because of their wide torque curve. But, harley has failed to modernize their v-twins. That is except for those modified for the buell bikes and the v-rod. All the other harley v-twins are air cooled two valve per cylinder engines. They have a long stroke when compared to the bore. And both pistons share the same crank pin. Would be nice to see harley offer more advancements such as liquid cooling. A bore to stroke ratio where the stroke is 90% of the bore. Resulting in more mid to high rpm power. Like the victory line offers. And 4 valves per cylinder. But, they really don't need Eric Buell to do this. As it turns out though eric buell may become a big competitor and take sales from harley. I am in favor of that. What harley is really good at is marketing. How do you sell 1940's engines to Doctors and Lawyers.

Don't listen to Paul. He has no idea what he's talking about.

The old tubers has some problems, but what bike company gets everything right the first time out? The XBs and later (2003 onward) are great bikes.

The main reason that Buells didn't sell well was because Harley didn't know how to market a sportbike. They know large, chromed out, slow cruisers but nothing else. Also, the CEO of Harley has stated, on record, that he personally hates Buell. He purposely killed the company even though they were still profitable for Harley and refused to sell the patents so that someone else can continue the company. It was a personal vendetta.

The quality of the is fine. The performance is exactly what they were designed to be. They were designed to have a large power band and be very agile. They don't make 200+HP at 11,000 RPMs because they're not meant to. They're bikes for the twisties and there's where they excel. They don't make it to the top of "shootouts" because people like paul think that that all sport bikes should only be high horsepower, high revving, I4s. And for the record, a UK magazine, Bike Magazine, took sport bikes and rated the top 50. They actually included Buells. The XB12R Firebolt made it to the #1 spot due to it's fantastic handling and huge powerband. The Buell Lightning came in at #8 on that same list.

Proof here - http://files.meetup.com/1171175/Top%2050%20Corneri...

See what happens when you look at real world situations and not pure track performance? Almost no one spends most of their time at the track. You spend most of your riding time in urban environments and in twisty backroads. So the Busa can do 200 mph? Great. It's a fun bike. But it's heavy as hell for a sport bike how often are you going to go that fast? And if you're going 100+mph on the freeway then you're a squid and your opinion doesn't count.

Actually, the VRod is the result of what happens when Harley gets in Buell's way. The engine was under development between Buell and Porsche. Harley was toying with the idea of a sportier bike and took notice of what Buell was up to. Then Harley stuck their noses in and made changes to the design. By the time Harley was done screwing up the engine it was too heavy for what Buell wanted and Harley just slapped it into the VRod anyway. Buell later got with Rotax and made a liquid cooled V-Twin which further pissed off Harley's CEO.

Buells have technology that no one thought of and it's all designed to increase handling and reduce unsprung weight. The fuel is in the frame. The oil is in the swingarm. The exhaust is underslung. Inverted forks. The front brake actually has more stopping power than most twin disc systems. The brake looks different because it is different, and better than most. Go read some reviews on the bikes. All this tech gets praised. And guess what? Other bikes are starting to use underslung exhausts and looking into the ZTL braking system that Erik Buell invented. He was ahead of the curve.

Oh, and the bikes are very very easy to service. They were designed with maintenance in mind. They dissemble with minimal steps and go back together easily. I saw a lifelong "Harley Guy" in awe of how easily a Firebolt was to service.

Harley's biggest mistake is trying to keep pushing out $20,000 outdated bikes that only the well off can afford. Today Harley riders are commonly called RUBs meaning Rich Urban Bikers. They appeal to people's nostalgia of old timey bikes but the people interested in it are slowing going away. Harley can't keep selling people $15,000 bikes and $5,000 of chrome because less and less people want it and less and less people can afford it. They need to get into the sub-$10,000 range and learn to modernize their bikes.

Erik Buell and his team could have helped them with this. After they forced the Sportster engine on him for his new XB line in the works he re-engineered it. After Buell was done the engine had twice the power. The modern Sportster engine can accurately be described as being a detuned Buell engine.

Yeah, Buell could really help Harley, but Harley is stubborn and refuses to change. They're doing so bad that they even threatened to pull out of Milwaukee if profits continued to fall.

And just for kicks and giggles, here's a little sarcasm to explain Harley's problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izzlN2zC8PU

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OH LOOK. An entire article about why Buell was killed off.

http://www.froggypwns.com/buellpdfs/Cycle%20World%...

As soon as the new CEO got a hold of Herley he looked at Buell and saw no use for it. He also had something against "Erik's racing hobby" and saw no point in it. This new CEO never never rode a motorcycle before getting the reins of Harley and just plain hates sportbikes.

I think it is a disgrace that all American motorcycle companies can do is build antique reproductions. But you can't argue with their success in marketing. Will the bubble pop one day and suddenly no one will want to pay premium prices for a bike with 70 year old performance...I think so. But big business has a habit of only worrying about the next quarter. The big downside is that if their parade bikes suddenly go out of vogue they are not going to be able to suddenly produce bikes that compete with more progressive companies.

Bikinkaw It means with a big enough advertising budget you would have the sheep paying extra to buy reproductions of Studebakers. And ford and chevy would have their own line of Studebaker clones. People would dress up like the 50's and cop an attitude as the putt putt down the highway in 1950 technology.

Considering how bad Buells were, I think it would have been a bigger mistake. The main reason Buells couldnt sell was because they simply didnt compare to in quality or performance to the big 4 (Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha). I actually looked into a Buell before I got my Hayabusa and never forgot how bad and cheap the front brakes looked. It was unbelievable. They werent comfortable and performance was terrible in comparison to the Busa. I dont think that the Buell ever made it into the top 4 or 5 in any sportbike shootout.

A big problem that HD cant seem to shake is modernization of their motorcycles. They keep using the V-Twin as the image of HD and they lack power. Period. Unless HD starts to modernize and start marketing to other demographics they will continue to loose market share to other motorcycle companies. Ill get a lot of flame for this post but its only from ignorant HD zealots who only see HD as the "defacto" of all motorcycles. I simply havent had a good rebuttle for any of my arguments from any poster on Y!A. Its funny..

Funny thing on the V-Rod is that it is a bastard child from HD. Most HD owners shun the V-Rod because it isnt a "real" HD and its motor was designed by porsche. V-Rod owners are shunned from other motorcycle riders because they bought the V-Rod in the first place. It isnt a "real" HD and lacks the performance of any sportbike. It simply missed the mark with targeted demographics.

My first bike was a HD and I sold it cause it sucked. Now, I have a Goldwing and Suzuki M109R. Any poster who says that HD isnt loosing marketshare is an idiot. Why? Because I now own 2 Jap bikes instead of a HD.

Here comes the flame and thumbs down!!! lol

GL

EDIT.....

AgentZero,

I test drove the Buell before I got my Busa and it was a complete joke!!! Real world??? It doenst get more real world than an average person trying different bikes and picking out the one he think performs best for him.

You can speculate why Buell went out of business but EVERY shootout that I have read, and I read a lot, NEVER had a Buell in the top 3. They simply cant perform, regardless of the candy wrapper your trying to place on them.

It has nothing to do with "brand" hating and it seems that thats what people always say when they cant defend attacks with legitimate arguments.

Bottom line: Buell went out of business because their bikes didnt sell and it wasnt because their bikes were so awesome.

FYI.... Follow the link and read all the comments on the Buells. They sugar coat a lot of stuff but they always come up lacking.

http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/street_bike_road_t...

EDIT....

Mikimus, I dont think that 1 shootout from a "streetfighter" class where Buell won constitutes Buell as an all around awesome motorcycle. Again, Buell went out of business and it wasnt casue it was an awesome bike. Period.

I think their biggest mistake was shutting down Buell production. Looked good to worried shareholders in the short term, but cut off a source of new, younger customers in the meium to long term. H-D's customer demographics are getting dangerously old, without any products worthy of attracting new blood. Unfortunately, few buyers seem to want a V-Rod.

Buell winning another shootout.

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/8/4506/Motorcycle-Ar...

Buell wins races.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buell_Motorcycle_Comp...

Erik Buell is a good engineer. Harley is just stuck in it's ways.

No. Their biggest mistake was over producing their motorcycles to the point that the value is much lower than it should be.

And here I thought their biggest mistake was hiring Elton John to play at their 100th. I mean c'mon....Elton John?

I don't fret about it, I just build my own,