Back to Newman and his recall antics?

My 2c - in fhe form of bullet points in no particular order

- is the dog working outside in all conditions? If not - why not? Your dog is waiting for you. Stop babying him. Part of his problem may be boredom. If you are just working him by rote, through routines - how dull is that.

- take the dog to a forest, or bush, somewhere that will engage his senses. Keep him on lead - and the moment you step out of the car you make him work. That means heel and sit - and no sniffing the ground for chipmunks and squirrels. The dog must work THE WHOLE TIME. You must be serious - of if not, why should he.

- Training a dog to come won't work if the dog is allowed to play, romp, or frolic outdoors the moment he sets foot outside.

-Dogs learn localization - that means, they will learn under certain conditions "come" is obeyed and others its not. Your dog is localized to your home. The rest - I dunno.

- don't put the dog in a situation where avoidance is an option. Extending the distance does nothing in the dogs mind - 30 feet - 50 feet - its all the same to him. But what does change is the fact he learns to ignore you. By calling a dog to come when you cannot enforce it - you have increased the dogs avoidance.

- why are you still giving the dog food rewards? After 1 year, the dog obviously knows the command. I'm not anti-food - I will use it and do use it on my dogs - but at this stage in the game, the dog is simply not working - and food is superfluous. The show ring is not a test of any working ability - and baiting a dog to stand in a ring is not what a working dog trained in the field will respond to.

- To answer your question - how/when off lead outside. Test the dog with distractions on an 8 foot lead. Are you able to get other dogs and handlers to work with you? If not, a group lesson would be ideal. The dog learns to work with other dogs - this will help tremendously.

Some other tips:

In the old days, when I was poor, I used to buy fishing line. Tie fishing line to a bronze clip and put it on the dog.

I would have the dog on lead with his own clip - then quietly clip the fishing line on - then unclip the long line. T he dog was conditioned to know the long line clip meant freedom and would run - the fishing line was the correction - and it must be a good correction - use a prong collar if you are not already. (yes, I know the dog is sensitive, it will still work).

The other thing we did - which has some merit but is not bullet proof - is buy another clip ( a heavy bronze one) and clip that on the dog when you let him off lead. Again, a lot of dog associate the clip with corrections and don't realize the lead is gone. The fishing line is almost invisible to the dog which makes it really effective.

The above tips are really proofing options when you have a much better trained dog - one that will come everytime on lead - snappy and without food.

I have owned sensitive dogs - in fact, I have one now - a GSD that was abused by the previous owner. She shuts down with too much correction - so I am not unaware. However, if you are in the mode of giving light, constant ineffective corrections - you are just having a dialog with the dog.

One correction - one direction.

My last point: in spite of all of the above, I concede in the bush, with critters, my dogs recall is not reliable. I admit Jennifer makes a good case however I also have been told by a person who has a lab and uses ecollar her dog will blow through the correction for a duck- so its not bullet proof on high prey driven dogs (which yours may or may not be) - or its increase the pain quotient to a level I cannot abide by - and then there is the fact I'm in the bush and zapping a dog that is hidden in the brush is risky and it may push a dog into fight vs flight if confronted by a critter..blah blah.

The problem I have is vibration mode is only good to a point of no distraction. Then what?

When I trained my dog for bite work (working service dog) - I didn't walk my dog at 3 am in the morning in the rough part of town hoping to be attacked so I could engage him.

The same applies to recall. We were advised to NEVER work our dogs off lead in public - becuase dogs are dogs - and the best trained dog can still get into trouble if another dog appears.

Training a dog to perform a function is not an excuse to test it in public where you put other dogs/people at risk.

Dogs belong with you on lead. Training is important. Its still worth the effort. But its not an excuse to let a dog run and get hurt -or hurt other things. Using ecollar (in my opinion) when the dog has had no stabalization training with other dogs, and no distraction training is pinning all your hopes on pain. And that seems wrong. Well trained dogs take A LOT of work and time. Electronics don't negate that.

The decision to use and e-collar has to be yours, and it has to be an educated one. As I'm sure you are fully aware, you MUST know how to use it before you put it anywhere near your dog.

What I can tell you is that I have two soft dogs, both have worn an e-collar for the purpose of recall training, and both live more fulfilling lives because of it. They were started in a fenced area and proofed well before being put in a position where they could get hurt if they freaked out, etc. No soft dog I have ever used an e-collar on was "ruined" by the proper use of an e-collar. What I find DOES cause a problem is the inconsistent messages that are sent to a dog when the handler has no way of enforcing a command.

My little b*tch would be positively horrified by me giving her a hard correction, but the e-collar is not too much for her. To her, the universe strongly believes that when I call her she should come to me immediately. She does not associate it with me, I am the safe place.

There's no shortage of people who preach against the use of an e-collar. I find it's very easy to do that when you happen to be blessed with a dog who will never leave your side, but after a few terrifying experiences with a dog who has a mind of his own I find people tend to change their tune. Not everybody owns Goldens.

LOL.

Well, Shankly had the same issues and I solved it quickly, like in under a week with the use of the vibration setting on a Dogtra electric collar.

I would start taking him off only in enclosed places, obviously. How old is he now? Just over 1 or just over 2?

EDIT: Shankly just turned 2 and went through a short period where he "forgot" all his doggy manners and I had to start back at the beginning.

I think Giant breeds are just dopey and stubborn. I swear he gives me the "Aw shucks. Are you ~really~ going to make me?" look all the time.

By time Edward was 2 he knew all the basic obedience commands plus a whole bunch of tricks. Beyond the basics, sit, stay, wait, leave it, come...Shankly can shake. That's it. I can't even get a true "lay down" from him.

EDIT: Shankly is sensitive with corrections despite being stubborn. Ive never had to go above the 1st setting.

Someone brought up a good point though, I never have Shankly off leash except for in big fields. Never in public places. If he took off after a jackrabbit and ignored the recall command the worst that could really happen is a frustrated me :) So far so good though.

E Collar, dear. Works wonderful. Need to learn how to use and the right time to use the compulsion.

Launi is off leashed trained, stays within the boundaries of her property (I am ALWAYS there with her) and she is an American Pit Bull Terrier. And this was accomplished with a 20 ft lead & an E collar.

I highly suggest going to the Leerburg website. Great E collar training videos.

Add: Launi is sensitive, also. The collar has levels of corrections. It also has a *pulse*. Which is simply a vibration. That may be all he needs. I used a 26 setting for Launi. Very light. She responded very well. It is a matter of starting low. It is a matter of watching how your dog reacts. You dog does not need a *yelp*, you need a shake of the head. That's all. And this all works in conjunction with the *come* command.

You know Greek? He taught me.

Oh, when he fired Neil, I said when Victor comes back, Victor is going to be so mad! I am so glad that Adam is going to get his. He couldn't wait to move Heather in there and he knew his father didn't like her. I'm curious to know what happens to Brad. I've been dying to know what Victor wanted them to come out to the house for the day after the Art Fundraiser. This is so awesome!!

Read A Thinking Dog. I have my previously "untrainable" plotthound coming when called even when focused on squirrels, or rabbits. Really, that book is really fantastic.