For those who think alternative medicine is a scam?

I'm afraid that your confusion arises because you've mixed up your definition of what "scientific evidence" actually is. Nutrition is NOT medicine, it's simply eating correctly to maintain your health. Herbal medicine has very limited, if any, scientific evidence and for all intents and purposes can be regarded as ineffectual (the clue is that it's not used in hospitals or by doctors).

"...do you realise it can be very insulting for a Naturopath who has done a 4 year health science degree....for you to categorise them with people who do reiki and spiritual type medicines and call it all a scam?"

To be clear: That emotion you're feeling? That's not hurt at being insulted, it's the fear that you've invested many hours in a subject and occupation that makes you essentially no better than some crazy reiki hippy. Sure, you can think yourself a cut above them because you believe your choice is science based, but you're wrong and this is just a Relativist Fallacy, you're actually no different.

Heck I'd be angry too if I spent 4 years of my life studying a worthless qualification or occupation. I'd also probably go into shock, denial, bargaining, depression etc.

1

Scientific medicine does not exist. Science-based medicine is an exact term, and is clear about the fact that mainstream medicine is also a pseudoscience. Effectiveness is a non-sense term in terms of science, it's only relevant when we look at statistics of a certains premisse, which is also a projection of reality on subspaces. Apart from that : - science-based medicine has proved its value in certain fields - a lot of diseases are 'caused' by emotion; well cause isn't the right word in a complex system as health dynamics with its feedback systems, but with the right emotion/attitude, disease cases would drop amazingly. - people should be taught as soon as possible how the mind and the body works together, on the mental level, and on the experimental level (vipassana meditation). Daily meditation (2 hours) would be a great proof of evolution in the schools. (At least I would be convinced that a lot of so called scientists and politicians aren't that big retards). - when really needed, we can trust on science-based medicine, but in the meanwhile (after generations of meditation) the number of really needed treatments will drop substantially (and when I say substantially, I mean it as a scientist, not as a pseudoscientist).

2

I would like to ask the same question as the person above.

By definition, alternative "medicine" refers to practices that haven't been demonstrated to work, or shown not to work. If people charge money for it, promising cures, then it's a scam.

"For example do you view homeopathy and "vibrational" medicine as the same thing as Naturopathy?"

No, it's an entirely different brand of BS. Homeopathy violates every basic law of science.

"is nutrition is a scam"

Nope, neither is it alternative medicine.

"So do you realize it can be very insulting for a Naturopath who has done a 4 year health science degree, and whose practices are all based on scientific evidence"

Except, most of it ISN'T based on scientific evidence. Naturoquacks are for the most part, quacks. They frequently make diagnosis based on vague symptoms, order bizarre tests and prescribe implausible "treatments" (e.g. detoxes and cleanses) to the worried well. Most of it has no basis in science.

Take "Dr" T above. Her basic science knowledge is terrible, she cannot interpret scientific literature, and constantly ignores the weight of evidence.

She often links to pubmed. Next time she does it, actually take the time to read through her links. Most are small scale poorly designed studies, usually on animals, and some even disagree with her position. Yet, she thinks because it's pubmed, it's evidence.

Her main flaw is the fact she cherry picks studies. And ignores other evidence showing it does not work. See her answers on acupuncture for a classic example of this.

Of course, I am making broad generalizations and using the example of one Naturoquack. Most naturoquacks don't claim to be science geeks like she does...

Lighty-poos, Having fun with the fallacies are you? Yeah, you keep going. You do a far better job of discrediting your side than we ever could.

@ Marc:" I also understand that many of them are atheists. You have to pity them. "

Why? Because we require evidence before we accept something works or exists?

"How sad to walk thru life with everything wrapped up in a neat little box."

No, it's sad to go through life without questioning the validity of things.

Edit: @ Lighty: The fact the quacks are able to make a living from sCAM does not demonstrate efficacy. Humans are very far from logical.

"Just Because you make something up and tell everyone it is real doesn't make it the truth. "

That's right, which is why I am always happy to provide evidence to support any claim I make. I don't resort to fallacies like the quacks.

"top resorting to "you are disgracing yourself...."

Where did I say that in answer to this question? Also, I haven't lost the argument. However, I have addressed the issues you have raised (prozac, surgery, Psychiatry, etc) numerous times before in previous postings. The fact you still keep using these illogical arguments, despite being shown how and why you are wrong, means you are disgracing yourself...so...

Additionally, the problem with your argument is two fold: 1. You're wrong 2. You're attempting to use it to justify alt.med, which is a non sequitur.

Finally, I never said the alties are not intelligent. There is a difference between being intelligent and educated, and being able to think logically and critically. The quacks usually fail in the latter.

I have no idea what or who the last part of your edit is referring to?

Neither mainstream medicine nor alternative medicine are scientific.

Mainstream medicine is some academic but highly pseudoscientific form of medicine, at the theoretical level, and even much more at the practical level.

The years of study and the complexity is irrelevant, for both sides.

The only truth you can study at university is math,

physics is still decent, but the rest is A BIG JOKE.

It not evidence based medicine, it's a scam. If it were evidence based medicine it would be just "medicine". If you were doing a science degree you would be a "dietitian" not a "nutritionist" (whatever that is).

I suppose it all comes down to one word "cite", try starting with Nature

ETA

"Most of these trolls are vacuous cerebral sycophants. I also understand that many of them are atheists."

Next thing you'll be stating we all have the intelligence of a button mushroom.

What the heck have atheists got to do with medicine? Either it works and there is evidence to show it or it doesn't. Divine intervention is nonsense.

*laughing* Yep, they paint with BIG WIDE (99.98% misinformed, 85% dogmatic) brushes. It helps their cause, though, because they tend to take the tack that since any single thing is "unscientific" then the whole field must be bogus.

Were anyone else making an argument of that ilk, these same individuals would come up with a host of fancy logic terminology (often misapplied, but heck it sounds impressive) to discredit the position. And, if history teaches, would then set about congratulating one another profusely for soundly beating down all attempts to question the status quo.

If you let it insult you when people who are ignorant choose to remain ignorant, you'll spend a lot of your life insulted. Breathe it out... and go about your business treating patients effectively with sound, science-based methods. ;)

---------------------------------------

LOL! Case in point x 3. I love it!

--------------------------------------

Yes, well everyone knows that one must disregard a multitude of moderately sized trials and animal MOA studies whenever contended with the weight of the "because I say so" defense.

Especially if it's backed up by the dessimating "nanny nanny boo boo" doctrine!!

Ok...I will try to put this without getting banned.

. To the anti altmedders anything in conventional medicine is good because it is science. Anything that is used for human heath that does not fit in this box is bad. Nothing that anyone ever says will ever make a difference. Most of these trolls are vacuous cerebral sycophants. I also understand that many of them are atheists. You have to pity them. How sad to walk thru life with everything wrapped up in a neat little box. Quite simply that is not life. Nothing is 100%, except death. The worst thing you can do is try to validate what you do to these pitiful souls. There is so much more that I want to say but I am sure that my account would be banned and that I would lower myself to their level of existence. Do your work...do it well and look in the mirror and be happy with what you see. Every time I help one of my patients I smile to myself and pity for the poor little trollys.

Edit- Religion/spirituality has nothing to do with medicine or alt-med- it does have to do with morality and the ability to accept on faith somethings that will never be explained. Atheism is just a vacuum. Just like many of the heads of the posters here

Edit: Gary...the day I explain myself to you I will have an orchyotomy and have them implanted in my buccal mucosa.