How do JehovahWitnesses reconcile ATBU clearly refutes the WT's own position that Prov8:22 is Jesus?

Debating the issue of personification is actually a red herring here! That is not the problem with Proverbs 8.

The New World Translation distorts the original Hebrew text which actually reads: "Jehovah possessed me [not 'produced' me] in the beginning of his way, before his works of old [not 'the earliest of his achievements']. I was set up from everlasting [or 'eternity' but NOT 'from time indefinite'], from the beginning, before the earth was [not, 'from times earlier than the earth'.]

When we take the accurate translation, then we see this red herring! "Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth was."

However, it remains true that this passage does, indeed, speak of the glory of Jesus Christ. Reformed theologians have always maintained this. They just stick to the Hebrew in showing this, which means that there is no room to even suggest that the pre-incarnate Christ was created!

In an article on Proverbs 8:22-31 William Kelly wrote, "In these verses we have the plainest and the brightest testimony of this book to Christ's glory. Who can fail to discern that he is here viewed as the Wisdom of God?

"The personality of his Wisdom is as marked here as of the Life in 1 John 1. This suits God if it does not man... The remarkable truth here signalised is the Wisdom portrayed with Jehovah before creation, and not merely in that display of almighty power guided by wisdom and goodness.

'Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of His way'. There was Wisdom, not simply in him but with him, as is said of the Word in John 1:1, '...the Word was God' He was no creature of God, but was in being before his works.'

"In addition, we have the following lovely composition of William Cowper (a hymn addressed to the Lord Jesus based on Proverbs 8):

'Ere God had built the mountains, or raised the fruitful hills;

Before He filled the fountains, that feed the running rills;

In Thee, from everlasting, the Wonderful I Am

Found pleasures never wasting, and Wisdom is Thy Name.' [Article in The Bible Treasury Jan 1900]

Could there ever be a time when Jehovah was without His Wisdom?

Could there ever be a time when Jehovah was without His Holy Spirit?

Do the JWs not realise that, by trying to personify Wisdom whilst - at the same time - saying this Wisdom was created - they are saying Jehovah was without Wisdom until He created Wisdom?

That is akin to saying that Jehovah was without His Word until He created the Word!

Just as 'the Word of God' is a title that tells us a truth about Jesus, so does 'the Wisdom of God' tell us a truth about Jesus. But we cannot personify 'Word' any more than we can personify 'Wisdom'! The person had to exist first, before attributes could be ascribed to him!

Let's not throw the Baby out with the bathwater here; Proverbs 8 teaches us a glorious truth about the inseparable natures of Jehovah and Jesus. Alas, the mistranslation of this passage in the NWT tries to separate them.

I am unable to reconcile the Jehovah's Witness position, but the following information might help to shed light on the subject of 'Wisdom' as described in Proverbs:

Proverbs discusses Wisdom’s role in creation. Wisdom is personified as in Proverbs 1:20-33; 3:15-18. Chapter 9:1-12 should not be interpreted as a description of Christ although Christ is the divine Word and “the wisdom of God” (1 Corinthians 1:24, 30; Colossians 2:3).

Regarding Proverbs 8:22 and the expression “brought forth” – the Hebrew for this verb is used in Genesis 4:1; 14:19-22. Wisdom is spoken of as the first of God’s works. Wisdom was already there before God began to create the world. See John 17:5 where Jesus prayed to his Father to “glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

The whole point is that there has never been a moment in time when God the Father was without either the Holy Spirit or the Son. All three were present, at creation. Jesus, as the Son, is the Word of God, and the wisdom of God.

It is true - personification does not *prove* personality. However, it is not *only* the "Watchtower's own position that Prov 8:22 is Jesus". The understanding that "Wisdom" in Prov. 8:22-30 is, in reality, figurative of Jesus in his pre-human existence has always existed in the majority of churches that call themselves Christian. Many Bible scholars (trinitarians included) have even said that this connection was made in the New Testament at 1 Cor. 1:24. For a list of quotes from trinitarian scholars admitting this, see:

"Prov. 8:22-30 "Wisdom" and Christ"

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/10/pr...

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In the case of the Holy Spirit, the way that the Bible uses the term "holy spirit" indicates that it is God's active force that He uses to accomplish a variety of His purposes. (Genesis 1:2; 2 Corinthians 4:7; Acts 2:1-4)

The Bible does not suggest that the Holy Spirit is God (or even a person, for that matter).Consider what the Encyclopedia Britannica Micropaedia, 1985 ed., Vol. 6, p. 22 says:

"The Hebrew word ruah (usually translated `spirit') is often found in texts referring to the free and unhindered ACTIVITY of God, .... There was, however, NO explicit belief in a separate divine person in Biblical Judaism; in fact, the New Testament itself is not entirely clear in this regard....

"The definition that the Holy Spirit was a distinct divine Person equal in substance to the Father and the Son and not subordinate to them came at the Council of Constantinople in AD 381...."

Many historians and Bible scholars (most of them trinitarians) freely admit the above truth. For example: "On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the Spirit as a divine energy or power." - A Catholic Dictionary.

An Encyclopedia of Religion agrees:

"In the New Testament there is no direct suggestion of the Trinity. The Spirit is conceived as an IMPERSONAL POWER by which God effects his will through Christ." - p. 344, Virgilius Ferm, 1945 ed.

Even the trinitarian New Bible Dictionary tells us:

"It is important to realize that for the first Christians the Spirit was thought of in terms of divine power." - p. 1139, Tyndale House Publishers, 1984.

SO BECAUSE OF THIS, even the trinitarian A Catholic Dictionary admits that the personification of the holy spirit in the New Testament certainly does not mean that it is a person:

"Most of these places furnish no cogent proof of personality....We must not forget that the NT personifies mere attributes such as love (1 Cor. xiii. 4), and sin (Rom. vii. 11), nay even abstract and lifeless things, such as the law (Rom iii.19), the water and the blood (1 John v.8)."

There's no contradiction for this reason: If the holy spirit is a person then the virgin birth is contradicted. Please read with an unbiased intent, and the "truth will set you free."

EDIT:

"personification does not prove personality". Exactly, one has to view the collected data on both Proverbs 8 Wisdom and the holy spirit separately to ascertain their teaching. The scriptures taken together for the holy spirit not being a person are clear, whereas the scriptures taken together for Jesus being created by God his Father are also clear. One cannot do research to try to disprove the Watchtower, as that betrays a biased disposition. One has to do objective research from the Bible to derive its teachings from. That's what I sense is the problem with this question, it is self-evident that it is biased.

Edit:

Regarding Annsan's post: Proverbs 8:22 in the (Trinitarian) NET Bible says: "The Lord *created* me as the beginning of his works." (emphasis added) It then has this footnote for "created":

(quote) There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation “create.” Athanasius translated it, “constituted me as the head of creation.” The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of “to acquire”; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.” Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create” or “establish” (R. N. Whybray, “Proverbs 8:22-31 and Its Supposed Prototypes,” VT 15 [1965]: 504-14; and W. A. Irwin, “Where Will Wisdom Be Found?” JBL 80 [1961]: 133-42). (end quote)

Thus, research that takes into account this expanded insight actually lends support to the NWT's translation of "produced."

From the Should You Believe the Trinity brochure-

Notice how closely those references to the origin of Jesus correlate with expressions uttered by the figurative “Wisdom” in the Bible book of Proverbs: “Yahweh created me, first-fruits of his fashioning, before the oldest of his works. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills, I came to birth; before he had made the earth, the countryside, and the first elements of the world.” (Proverbs 8:12, 22, 25, 26, NJB) While the term “Wisdom” is used to personify the one whom God created, most scholars agree that it is actually a figure of speech for Jesus as a spirit creature prior to his human existence.

The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.

From what I gather, it is a personification of Jesus in his Pre-human existence.

This is a great point. They tackle this verse with a preconceived ideal that Jesus was a created being. No matter how you slice this verse you can not personify a person. The very ideal can only have a couple of understandings. Either "Wisdom" is personified or the Placement of the person as "Wisdom" can be personified, but not the person. Many of the Christian faiths claim this to be Jesus, and maybe to a certain extent it is. In so much as the "office" of Jesus as Messiah is personified but not the person of Jesus. His position may be personified but a person is a person already and to try and personify a person, well you can't. That's like trying to make jelly out of jelly, it's already jelly. But if the Jehovah's Witness want to believe that it is Jesus, then they should believe the rest of the verse also.

Lets read NWT Colossians 1: 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. (NWT)

Even thought these verse clash in the NWT we will look at their concept that Jesus was created but then he made everything else.

Then take a good look at Proverbs 8 in the KJV or NIV or ASB or any other good Bible as if you read the NWT you will see how flawed it's interpretation is. See this link. http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTp...

But we see in Proverbs that God is creating everything and this "Wisdom" is at his side, so it leaves us with the two ideal of interpretation that I mentioned before, either it is just as it says "Wisdom" personified or the office of the Messiah as "Wisdom" that is personified.

Two things that I have learned when dealing with the Jehovah's Witnesses is that by using their own publications they will excuse all mistakes, under their new light, so new truth and then disown the old or they will never acknowledge that one publication is in conflict with another. Contradictions, they don't exist in the Watchtower, they only exist outside in Christendom. They set themselves up as elitists in an exclusive club and can't and will not accept any ones teaching unless it come from the Watchtower. They will earnestly say they believe the Bible only but in reality they believe only the understanding that is derived form the Watchtowers understanding of the scriptures.

I might attempt -

But could you give a page number? I mean the book has 1696 pages.

EDIT EDIT EDIT

OK - l looked at the material that you referred to.

First thing I noted was line 5 in the paragraph in question - "Jesus AT TIMES applying the personal pronoun".

What the material is saying is that if a personality trait that is considered feminine or masculine is used to convey a highlighted quality, then a feminine or masculine designation of address is used. But that in itself does NOT mean that the subject is feminine or masculine.

And really vice versa.

We can see this by the fact that horns and mountains are used to signify governments and rulerships. Even Jesus was referred to as "sprout" in the prophecy of Zechariah. And "sprout" has no gender.

So it would not rule out Proverbs chapter 8 being identified with Christ Jesus.

The context is what indicates the usage. You might also want to take a look at Proverbs chapter 7 where wisdom is spoken of as a "sister", showing it would not be out of place to refer to Proverbs chapter 8 as a "person" - in this case, Christ Jesus as God's Master Worker, as the Word.

EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT

No amendment needed. Since it uses the word "sometimes", the Aid book was correct in its statements.

Your reasoning is cross circuiting and talking about 2 different subjects first you would have to deal with weather or not Proverbs is talking about Jesus and then you would have to address weather or not the Holy Spirit is a person.

Trying to cause confusion by taking answers or reason and cross circuiting with two different subjects is a cheap parlor trick and anyone with scriptural reasoning sees right through your subterfuge!

Your question doesn't make sense therefore answering it would have to first separate the two and answer one at a time!

You must be twisting what is said--The Jw,s know prov 8:22 is about Jesus.

Your discussing a book we have not had for years so cant comment.If you have one are you an opposer of JW's?