Messianics - regarding Passover Lamb symbolism?

I have been noting lately that it is normative for people self-indentifying as "Messianics" to claim that Yeshu is the Passover Lamb.

It also happens to be that Jewish, Egyptian, and Roman documents written between the second century BC and second century AD (like Manetho, Josephus, Tacitus)
are all in agreement that to the degree that the Passover lamb was symbolic of any deity, it was a Jewish "blasphemy" of the Egyptian god Ra.
ie: the Jews basicaly saying to their Egyptian overseers "Nya, Nya, we are eating your god!"

It thus being the case that it was the shared belief of all relevant cultures at the time that Jesus and his immediate Jewish followers were alive that the Passover Lamb was symbolic of an Egyptian idol,
can we drop the whole "Messiah Yeshu" pretense, admit that you are worshiping the chief god of Egypt
and move to truth in labeling by calling your religion "Egyptian-neo-paganism"?

2014-04-03T08:06:12Z

@Petes Sake -- regarding which premise?

2014-04-03T12:16:37Z

@"Jesus Kosher Rock"
> Where have you been? This has been a staple of theology (including
Christian theology) for centuries.

Well -- note how I did not direct this to normative Christians.
The so-called Messianics always claim that they are different.
You also claim, in contradiction to the Jewish assertion that you are in fact simply normative Protestant Christians, that there is some connection to the Jewish followers of Jesus.

2014-04-03T12:22:09Z

@Kosher Rock cnt'd
Thus -- seeing that there is no known Jewish mesorah for interpreting ANY sacrifice as "eating God",
but there IS first century Jewish writing that quite clearly connects the Passover Lamb to "God's judgements against the gods of Egypt" and specificaly states that the Jews placed the blood on their doors as a show of faith to God because it would certainly enflame the anger of the Egyptians due to the Egyptians seeing the slaughter of the lamb as a blasphemy of their God,

2014-04-03T12:33:39Z

And, seeing as the Egyptian writers of the period (as well as the Greek and Roman historians who dealt with the subject)
quite clearly also saw the Passover sacrifice as Jews symbolicaly eating Ra,

ie: any Roman-era person (Jew or Egyptian or Greek) who said "Yeshu is the lamb"
was quite clearly and openly saying that "Yeshu is Ra"

BMCR2014-04-03T12:01:58Z

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Actually, there is something to be said about "made me kosher's" statement in both directions:
"Where have you been? This has been a staple of theology (including Christian theology) for centuries."

Notice he said "including Christian theology"?

In other words, "made me kosher" is correct in the sense that "Jesus = Pascal lamb" has been part of standard CHRISTIAN theology and is NOT something new that Messianics have claimed.

"made me kosher" is also INCORRECT by using the phrase "including Christian theology", FALSELY implying that the concept was part of TWO theologies.
Rather, a correct and honest phrase would be: "This has been a staple of Christian theology for centuries."

But if he made that statement, it would further emphasize what I have been saying for a very long time (which "made me kosher" has never addressed)... that "Messianic Judaism" is really a weird version of Protestant Christianity. Thus it would make perfect sense that they would use a Christian theological concept being that, theologically, they ARE CHRISTIAN.

But as we very well know, these theological concepts about the Pesach lamb and it being equated with Jesus are foreign to Judaism.
Judaism has its own approach as to how the Pesach is to be understood that fits it very well with what the Bible says. And it is quite a shame that "made me kosher" himself is ignorant of Judaism's approach. (For example: He may want to check to see if the Pesach is considered a sin offering.)

Anonymous2014-04-16T01:43:48Z

No I disagree, The Lamb of YHVH does NOT represent ra & is not a na na na moment we are eating your god.
What blasphemy to call the spotless Lamb of YHVH without spot or blemish an idol.
Yeshua said "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man & drink His blood you do not have life in you."
Eating & drinking has to do with Torah & good works, not cannibalism.
There are plenty of midrash quotes to establish this fact that eating & drinking refer to Torah & Good works. Rabbi Tachuma, Rabbi Nachman, Rabbi Menchama, Rabbi Yirmiyahu, Rabbi Shmu'ei & so on.
Rabbi Yonah on Eccles 8:15 A man has no better thing under the sun than to eat drink & be merry & this should accompany him in his world, (Olamo) Food & drink do not go down to the grave so food & drink is for here. Therefore Yeshua's reference to eating & drinking refer to his disciples Good Works from Torah.
Following in His footsteps & following the Torah of YHVH & doing the Good Works Yeshua did.
Jews & Gentiles open to the truth of the Word of YHVH will see that this is not eating some ra god.
Matt 26:26-29 Is a Passover Seder & the broken middle matzah is the Son broken into many for all the people, the other half hidden to be found later by the children, a mystery, the bread of Life=Messiah. These truths like the afikoman will be found & taken in eventually by those seeking to know the Truth of YHVH. The fruit of the vine & blessing was also showing Yeshua , represents the 4 cups of wine that refer back to the promises made in Ex6:6-7/Luke 22:17a
1) I am YHVH, I will bring you out from under the burdens of Egypt .
2) I will deliver you out of their bondage.
3) I will redeem you with an outstretched arm & great judgements.
4) I will take you to me for a people & I will be to you Elohim.

Greg Chalik2014-04-03T20:44:51Z

Firstly the Paschal lambs in Egypt were not crucified.

Secondly, what did Jesus mean to Romans that crucified him?

I don't recall anyone taking Jesus' blood to apply to any door posts. In any case, the blood would not have been kosher!!!

The entire concept of this symbolism is irrational since Paschal lambs served a purpose of re-establishing the identity of former slaves as free people. What identity was created by Jesus' crucifiction?

Messianic Rose2014-04-16T08:45:55Z

Y'shua is the Lamb of YHWH, He was pre-figured in the near sacrifice of Isaac. As someone already said YHWH does not have a problem with lambs only the Egyptians, who worshipped animals.

Anonymous2014-04-02T15:01:08Z

Actually, the most truthful name for the Messianics would be "Evangelical Proselytizing Southern Baptist Christianity with a Hebrew Garnish"

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