Messianics - regarding Passover Lamb symbolism?

Actually, there is something to be said about "made me kosher's" statement in both directions:

"Where have you been? This has been a staple of theology (including Christian theology) for centuries."

Notice he said "including Christian theology"?

In other words, "made me kosher" is correct in the sense that "Jesus = Pascal lamb" has been part of standard CHRISTIAN theology and is NOT something new that Messianics have claimed.

"made me kosher" is also INCORRECT by using the phrase "including Christian theology", FALSELY implying that the concept was part of TWO theologies.

Rather, a correct and honest phrase would be: "This has been a staple of Christian theology for centuries."

But if he made that statement, it would further emphasize what I have been saying for a very long time (which "made me kosher" has never addressed)... that "Messianic Judaism" is really a weird version of Protestant Christianity. Thus it would make perfect sense that they would use a Christian theological concept being that, theologically, they ARE CHRISTIAN.

But as we very well know, these theological concepts about the Pesach lamb and it being equated with Jesus are foreign to Judaism.

Judaism has its own approach as to how the Pesach is to be understood that fits it very well with what the Bible says. And it is quite a shame that "made me kosher" himself is ignorant of Judaism's approach. (For example: He may want to check to see if the Pesach is considered a sin offering.)

No I disagree, The Lamb of YHVH does NOT represent ra & is not a na na na moment we are eating your god.

What blasphemy to call the spotless Lamb of YHVH without spot or blemish an idol.

Yeshua said "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man & drink His blood you do not have life in you."

Eating & drinking has to do with Torah & good works, not cannibalism.

There are plenty of midrash quotes to establish this fact that eating & drinking refer to Torah & Good works. Rabbi Tachuma, Rabbi Nachman, Rabbi Menchama, Rabbi Yirmiyahu, Rabbi Shmu'ei & so on.

Rabbi Yonah on Eccles 8:15 A man has no better thing under the sun than to eat drink & be merry & this should accompany him in his world, (Olamo) Food & drink do not go down to the grave so food & drink is for here. Therefore Yeshua's reference to eating & drinking refer to his disciples Good Works from Torah.

Following in His footsteps & following the Torah of YHVH & doing the Good Works Yeshua did.

Jews & Gentiles open to the truth of the Word of YHVH will see that this is not eating some ra god.

Matt 26:26-29 Is a Passover Seder & the broken middle matzah is the Son broken into many for all the people, the other half hidden to be found later by the children, a mystery, the bread of Life=Messiah. These truths like the afikoman will be found & taken in eventually by those seeking to know the Truth of YHVH. The fruit of the vine & blessing was also showing Yeshua , represents the 4 cups of wine that refer back to the promises made in Ex6:6-7/Luke 22:17a

1) I am YHVH, I will bring you out from under the burdens of Egypt .

2) I will deliver you out of their bondage.

3) I will redeem you with an outstretched arm & great judgements.

4) I will take you to me for a people & I will be to you Elohim.

Firstly the Paschal lambs in Egypt were not crucified.

Secondly, what did Jesus mean to Romans that crucified him?

I don't recall anyone taking Jesus' blood to apply to any door posts. In any case, the blood would not have been kosher!!!

The entire concept of this symbolism is irrational since Paschal lambs served a purpose of re-establishing the identity of former slaves as free people. What identity was created by Jesus' crucifiction?

Y'shua is the Lamb of YHWH, He was pre-figured in the near sacrifice of Isaac. As someone already said YHWH does not have a problem with lambs only the Egyptians, who worshipped animals.

Actually, the most truthful name for the Messianics would be "Evangelical Proselytizing Southern Baptist Christianity with a Hebrew Garnish"

>>>I have been noting lately that it is normative for people self-indentifying as "Messianics" to claim that Yeshu is the Passover Lamb.

1) Where have you been? This has been a staple of theology (including Christian theology) for centuries. Messianic Jews did not make this up. Why do you act like this is something new? Are you that ignorant of theological studies? I have post Graduate level studies and you act like this is something you never heard of before and just noticed.

>>>the Passover lamb was symbolic of any deity, it was a Jewish "blasphemy" of the Egyptian god Ra.

ie: the Jews basicaly saying to their Egyptian overseers "Nya, Nya, we are eating your god!"

2) This is patently absurd.

A) the Israelites were to take a lamb for each household, "without blemish, a male of the first year," WHY? If it represented any Egyptian god, was God teaching the Israelites that the Egyptian gods were “spotless”??? Patently absurd. It was to be ‘without blemish” and that is always used in Torah about God’s sacrifices (Lev. 1.10, 3.6, etc.). The Passover lamb, according to the ordinance of Pesach, (Exodus 12.5) must be year-old males without defect. It was to be in the prime of life and without blemish. Blemish refers to sin. Were the Egyptian gods without blemish? So are you saying that Egypt’s gods were on the same level as God’s sacrifices?

B) The blood of the lamb was placed upon the doorposts. This is no small thing! If you were an Israelite, only the blood saved you from Judgment. “…When I see the blood, I will pass over you.” (Exodus 12:13). It was the lamb’s blood sprinkled on the lintels and doorposts which caused the destroyer to pass over them, sparing them. So are you saying that the Egyptian gods saved the Israelites from death entering in? Would it not rather make perfect sense that this was God’s way of teaching the Israelites that His sacrifice saved them from judgment? Is this not exactly what Moses taught them later at Sinai with all the sacrifices that they were to make that saved them from Judgment. The very first thing that King David did when Judgment fell was to sacrifice (2 Samuel 24.25). He understood very well the Mosaic prescription that sacrifice stopped Judgment. “Then the LORD answered his prayer in behalf of the land, and the plague on Israel was stopped.” It is as plain as day. Sacrifice stopped judgment. This is the same thing that happened on Passover. It had nothing to do with an Egyptian god.

C) >>>"Nya, Nya, we are eating your god!"

What??? The Mosaic sacrificial system ALSO had the Cohanim (priests) eat the sacrifice. “'This is the law of the sin offering: in the place where the burnt offering is slain the sin offering shall be slain before the LORD; it is most holy. The priest who offers it for sin shall EAT IT.” (Leviticus 6.25-26)

Eating the sacrifice was part of the Mosaic system. It showed that you took it to heart. That you internalized (quite literally) this offering. It had nothing to do with the foolishness of “we are eating your god.” Beyond absurd.

D) The Israelites were supposed to have lamb every year at the Seder.

So were they supposed to be bringing an Egyptian god to the Seder table and eating it every year? This is unbelievably ignorant of Biblical truth.

Lambs are very significant in Tanach. Over and over again they are mentioned. The passage in Isaiah 53, referred to as “The Suffering Servant” passage describes this Servant as “He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.” (Isaiah 53.7)

It is no wonder that for millennia, believers have been reading the words of Yochanan (the one who gave mikvah’s) who said "The next day John saw Yeshua (Jesus) coming unto him, and said, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world." (John 1.29 & 36)

Yes indeed – The Messiah of Israel is the Lamb of God who keeps judgment away from those who put His blood on the doorposts of their hearts. Without the blood on the doorposts in Egypt – judgment entered, no matter how ‘good’ a person was.

Happy Passover.

Sorry but no - we vehemently disagree

The Paschal lamb is a direct representation of a false god of Egypt. If that’s what Christians insist on calling Jesus, so be it. Just know that by calling Jesus your false god you're NOT "keeping" the Passover. God’s word is clear on the matter of the Paschal lamb. Read the entire story yourself in Exodus. Don’t take my word, it’s God’s word.

6:6 'Therefore say to the Israelites [in My name], 'I am God. I will take you away from your forced labor in Egypt and free you from their slavery. I will liberate you with a demonstration of My power, and with great acts of judgment.

The Israelites had been subjugated to hundreds of years enslaved in a culture that dwelled on death, false animal and man gods and superstition. God was going to break both the physical and spiritual bonds of enslavement to the Israelites.

Through each one of the plagues God demonstrated to both the Egyptians and to Israel that the God of Israel was more powerful than the false gods of Egypt.

After one of the plagues Pharaoh said to Moses:

8:21 Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron. 'Go!' he said. '[You have permission to] sacrifice to your God here in [our] land.'

8:22 'That would hardly be suitable,' replied Moses. 'What we will sacrifice to God our Lord is sacred to the Egyptians. Could we sacrifice the sacred animal of the Egyptians before their very eyes and not have them stone us?

This is a direct reference to the LAMB representing their false god to the Egyptians. The Hebrews were enslaved in fear to do something like that in front of the Egyptians!

8:23 What we must do is make a three day journey into the desert. There we will be able to sacrifice to God our Lord, just as He told us.

8:24 'I will let you leave,' said Pharaoh, 'as long as you do not go too far away. You can sacrifice to God your Lord in the desert. But pray for me!'

8:25 Moses answered, 'When I leave your presence, I will pray to God. Tomorrow, the creatures will go away from Pharaoh, his servants, and his people. But let Pharaoh never again deceive us, refusing to let the people sacrifice to God.'

Pharaoh went back on his word again so God then killed much of the Egyptian livestock (representatives of their false gods by the way) and spared those of the Israelites. Then boils and then hail came and they were still not convinced of the power of God over their gods. But God wasn’t done with his demonstration to fully convince the Egyptians and those of Israel who still may have had doubts and fears.

10:2 You will then be able to confide to your children and grandchildren how I made fools of the Egyptians, and how I performed miraculous signs among them. You will then fully realize that I am God.'

Pharaoh was still obstinate so locusts and darkness came, then finally, after Pharaoh said Moses would see his face no more came the ultimate show of power and strength. It also gave Israel the opportunity to demonstrate to Egypt and to God their loyalty. Finally, their bonds of enslavement of both mind and spirit were now shattered.

11:4 Moses said [to Pharaoh] in God's name, 'Around midnight, I will go out in the midst of Egypt.

11:5 Every first-born in Egypt will die, from the first-born of Pharaoh sitting on his throne, to the first-born of the slave girl behind the millstones. Every first-born animal [will also die].

11:7 But among the Israelites, a dog will not even whine because of man or beast. You will then realize that God is making a miraculous distinction between Egypt and Israel.

11:8 'All your officials here will come and bow down to me. They will say, 'Leave! You and all your followers!' Only then will I leave.' He left Pharaoh in great anger.

ONLY when Egypt is convinced of God’s power over their false gods will Israel depart with their freedom intact!

Now the command to the Passover sacrifice begins and read carefully to understand what the sacrifice represented. I will not type everything here I hope you will read ALL of Exodus yourself to gain a fuller understanding.

12:5 You must have a flawless young animal, a one-year-old male. You can take it from the sheep or from the goats.

So it could be a sheep or a goat. Egypt had deities as represented from BOTH animals. How convenient…Israel is to kill representatives of Egyptian deities in their presence and to dip hyssop, an herb used to purify the holy Egyptian temples and DIP it in the VERY LIFE ESSENCE (that’s what they believed blood to be) of their deity in their presence as an act of defiance and mark their doors with it in allegiance to the God of Israel who will demonstrate His power over their false gods. Then they were to roast and eat their false Egyptian god representation in the presence of the Egyptians without any recourse done to them, thus demonstrating the impotence of their man/god Pharaoh and their other false gods. In fact, they were “passed over” by the angel of death who instead punished the Egyptians for their idolatry and enslavement of mind and body. Pharoah had done this to God’s “first-born” ( You shall tell Pharaoh, 'Thus says the Lord, Israel is my son, my firstborn. Ex 4:22

12:12 I will pass through Egypt on that night, and I will kill every first-born in Egypt, man and beast. I will perform acts of judgment against all the gods of Egypt. I [alone] am God.

That is a very important passage there..NOTE..**God will enact judgment against the false gods..plural now..of Egypt. That was the purpose of the Passover sacrifice.**

12:13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are staying. I will see the blood and pass you by (pasach). There will not be any deadly plague among you when I strike Egypt.

12:27 You must answer, 'It is the Passover service to God. He passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt when He struck the Egyptians, sparing our homes.'

The people bent their heads and prostrated themselves.

The Passover sacrifice, be it a sheep or a goat, was NEVER a sin sacrifice. The sacrifice serves to demonstrate the people’s courage, as they take the Egyptians’ object of worship and slaughter and eat it in the service of the God of Israel!

Torah is clear that the sacrifice and eating of the lamb at Pesach was the killing and eating of the false god of Egypt to show allegiance to the real God. The continuation of the Paschal lamb sacrifice is an eternal remembrance of that deliverance from idolatry and slavery. This is why no uncircumcised male or Gentile could partake of the Paschal lamb. Both before the days of the Temple and during both First and Second Temple periods and in between it was also clear it never represented a sin sacrifice to the Jewish people at any time because there are entirely different methods for sacrificing a lamb for a sin sacrifice and the lamb for the Passover!

It would have made no difference if Jesus had been "without blemish", a human may never qualify as an acceptable sacrifice before God, and Jews believe God did not lie when God told all Israel, God does not become a man. They'd just experienced a powerful lesson that the Pharaoh who was believed by all Egypt to be a God, and shown allegiance to the only real God by their act of placing the "life force" of Egypts false god representatives on their doors in defiance. . However, the fact that Jesus is worshipped as a deity and the Passover sacrifice was about placing the blood, symbolizing the life force of a false god on their door as an act of defiance to show the impotence of the false god over the God of Israel ...might be making their claim of Jesus being a part of Passover in modern times a little more real than they recognize, but for a very different reason! If they want to claim he was a Paschal lamb, then they are telling Jews he is a false god of Egypt. Despite all efforts to negate Torah and eliminate the eternal covenant through countless methods, Empires have come and gone, but Torah remains intact!

The reason that Passover has historically been the time of the worst persecutions of Jews throughout the spread of Christianity in Europe ( the blood libels and pogroms especially) is because of the extreme contradictions between the Torah's telling of the Passover and the purpose of the Paschal lamb, and the Christian redefinition of it being such a violation. Jews have historically been reluctant to point out that if they are being Biblical literalists with the book of Exodus and they call Jesus the Paschal lamb, it is THEY who label him a false god. That has incited murders of countless Jews over the centuries.

It is often a big shock when people read it in its own context, but shaking things up has a great deal to do with Passover....they abandoned a world-view imposed upon them for several generations by a powerful empire.

The lesson of the redemption of Israel from the immersion in a culture obsessed with death and the afterlife and belief in incarnate deities and who want to eliminate the path of Torah, is not so far from what Jews experience in the modern world .

The Paschal lamb was never a sin sacrifice and that’s very clear in the Torah and in Jewish history. No Paschal lamb was ever sacrificed to atone for sin.

Jesus made's response here proves to all Jews knowing a whit about Passover from a Torah standpoint that he certainly could never have been raised in a Jewish home.