If giving up some RIGHTS produces a better society, would giving up all our rights produce a perfect society?

we better pull our heads out of the sand before it is too late.

THE WAR

Please take the time to read the essay below by Dr. Chong. It is without a doubt the most

This WAR is for REAL!

Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired

Tuesday, July 12, 2005.

To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our country is now facing the most

serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine

(which includes WWII).

The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are very few of us who

think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who realize what losing really means.

First, let's examine a few basics:

1. When did the threat to us start?

Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United States is concerned is

1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following attacks on us:

* Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;

* Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;

* Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;

* Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;

* First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;

* Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;

* Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;

* Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;

* Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;

* New York World Trade Center 2001;

* Pentagon 2001.

(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist attacks worldwide).

2. Why were we attacked?

Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the

administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault

either the Republicans or Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents

or their immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.

3. Who were the attackers?

In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.

4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%.

5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful?

Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the predominately Christian

population of Germany was peaceful, but under the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was

also Christian), that made no difference. You either went along with the administration or

you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for political

reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests). (see http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm...

Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as the six million

holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom heard of anything other than the

Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy

about killing anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world

- German, Christian or any others.

Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but kill all in the way --

their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else. The point here is that just like the

peaceful Germans were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many

peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim

leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own pronouncements --

killing all of us "infidels." I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the

choice was shut up or die?

6. So who are we at war with?

There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the Muslim terrorists.

Trying to be politically correct and avoid verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There

is no way to win if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting. So with

that background, now to the two major questions:

1. Can we lose this war?

2. What does losing really mean?

If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions. We can definitely lose

this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the major reason we can lose is that so many

of us simply do not fathom the answer to the second question - What does losing mean?

It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means hanging our heads,

bringing the troops home and going on about our business, like post Vietnam. This is as far

from the truth as one can get.

What losing really means is:

We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks will not subside, but

rather will steadily increase. Remember, they want us dead, not just quiet. If they had just

wanted us quiet, they would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us,

over the past 18 years. The plan was clearly, for terrorists to attack us, until we were

neutered and submissive to them.

We would of course have no future support from other nations, for fear of reprisals and for

the reason that they would see, we are impotent and cannot help them.

They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will be increasingly easier

for them. They already hold Spain hostage. It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong

for Spain to withdraw its troops from Iraq. Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed

their train and told them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want Spain to do will be

done. Spain is finished.

The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they might see the light and

realize that if we don't win, they are finished too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists

without us. However, it may already be too late for France. France is already 20% Muslim and

fading fast!

If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life will all vanish as we know

it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us, if they were threatened by the Muslims. If we

can't stop the Muslims, how could anyone else?

The Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are completely committed

to winning, at any cost. We better know it too and be likewise committed to winning at any cost.

Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. Until we recognize the

costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning.

And it is going to take that 100% effort to win.

So, how can we lose the war?

Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by "imploding." That is, defeating ourselves

by refusing to recognize the enemy and their purpose, and really digging in and lending full

support to the war effort. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we continue to

be divided, there is no way that we can win!

Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the life and death

seriousness of this situation.

President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation. Although all of the

terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary

Mineta refuses to allow profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously?

This is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of the civil rights we

have become accustomed to. We had better be prepared to lose some of our civil rights

temporarily or we will most certainly lose all of them permanently.

And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil rights during WWII,

and immediately restored them after the victory and in fact added many more since then.

Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him?

No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political Correctness, and

all of our civil rights during this conflict and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of

those words apply to war. Get them out of your head.

Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the Administration that it almost

seems they would literally like to see us lose. I hasten to add that this isn't because they

are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize what losing means. Nevertheless,

that conduct gives the impression to the enemy that we are divided and weakening. It

concerns our friends, and it does great damage to our cause.

Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media regarding the

treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies best what I am saying. We

have recently had an issue, involving the treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war,

by a small group of our military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few

months ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their hands,

cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own people just for disagreeing

with Saddam Hussein.

And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed 400,000 of their own

people for the same reason. They are also the same type of enemy fighters, who recently

were burning Americans, and dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq.

And still more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is providing videos to all

news sources internationally, of the beheading of American prisoners they held.

Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days have thought

and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some Muslim prisoners -- not

burning them, not dragging their charred corpses through the streets, not beheading

them, but "humiliating" them.

Can this be for real?

The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the Secretary of Defense.

If this doesn't show the complete lack of comprehension and understanding of the

seriousness of the enemy we are fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the

disastrous results of losing this war, nothing can.

To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this prisoner issue makes us look

like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned -- totally oblivious to what is going on in the

real world. Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife. Again I say,

this does not mean that some of our politicians or media people are disloyal. It simply

means that they are absolutely oblivious to the magnitude of the situation we are in, and

into which the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us, for many years.

Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! That translates into ALL

non-Muslims -- not just in the United States, but throughout the world.

We are the last bastion of defense. We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.'

That charge is valid in at least one respect. We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so

good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of all those who attack us,

and that with both hands tied behind our back, we can defeat anything bad in the world!

We can't!

If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive, and no other free country

in the world will survive if we are defeated.

And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow freedom of speech,

freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, equal rights for anyone --

let alone everyone, equal status or any status for women, or that have been productive in

one single way that contributes to the good of the world.

This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or we will be equated

in the history books to the self-inflicted fall of the Roman Empire. If, that is, the Muslim leaders

will allow history books to be written or read.

If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims take over France in

the next 5 years or less. They will continue to increase the Muslim population of France and

continue to encroach little by little, on the established French traditions. The French will be

fighting among themselves, over what should or should not be done, which will continue to

weaken them and keep them from any united resolve. Doesn't that sound eerily familiar?

Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some external military force.

Instead, they give their freedoms away, politically correct piece by politically correct piece.

And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, worldwide that they

abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even to themselves, once they are in power.

They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then start brutally killing

each other over who will be the few who control the masses. Will we ever stop hearing

from the politically correct, about the "peaceful Muslims"?

I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are united, there is no way

that we can lose. I hope the factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical situation

we are in, and will unite to save our country. It is your future we are talking about!

Do whatever you can to preserve it.

After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, but our children, our

grandchildren, our country and the world.

Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that includes the Politicians

and media of our country and the free world!

No and no. We do not give up our rights for the betterment of society. Our rights are for the betterment of society.

And I'm too tired to go around the mulberry bush with you about the Patriot Act again tonight. But we have, you and I discussed that and the MCA in the past. Before you went traveling, and when I used a different name. But you may have noticed that the new Congress doesn't seem to be mentioning it.

And yes, Caveman. We do. And now, just answer the question.

Giving up rights doesn't create a better society so obviously giving up all would destroy society rather than make it perfect. The ability to make your own choices on matters and speak/write freely is of the utmost importance to maintaining a good society. There is no excuse for us to ever give up rights, because the moment we do so the enemies of our society have won.

well... the trick is... as it always is when you give up power...

stable leadership...

basically, as you give up more and more rights, you rely on the leadership more and more to make good decisions...

I mean you have kings in history with absolute power that were GREAT GUYS... would have been a pleasure to live under... but then... they don't live forever... and someone has to take their place... so you get a bad king eventually... and he has the same absolute power... and you don't want to live there anymore...

I mean... look at our leadership now... it's split between Pelosi, Harry Reid, Bush, and the Supreme court....

odds are, you don't trust one of those people... and probably shouldn't "trust" any of them...

and of course the other thing... when you start taking rights away... all of a sudden more and more rights start disappearing... one was such a great idea it turns into 30 rights taken away...

as long as you hide behind "it's for the good of the country" what can you do if you didn't mind the one being taken for the "good of the country"...

It is not the forfeiture of rights that produces a better society, but the protection of rights, and that is the problem with contemporary politics. Ideally, I have the right to do whatever I want with my fist, extending it freely as I please, UNTIL my fist encounters your face, and by then, I have violated your rights. The perfect society would entail the freedom for people to do anything they want so long as it does not curtail another's rights. Giving up all rights would be worse than 1984. We would not have the right to speak, think, or breath if we gave up all our rights.

In tyranny all rights are held by the tyrant who controls every aspect of society to some degree depending on whim.

If you offend him or her in the slightest way...something will be done to YOU.

An example of abuse was a Latino couple who voiced opinions against Bill Clinton. They were detained, questioned for hours and later audited by the IRS. Hillary is also said to be "a mean, spiteful, straight razor toting type". I hope this country has seen its LAST LAWYER PRESIDENT...my prayer as well.

Without rights, we couldn't fight for the perfect society. We need to wake up and protect what we take for granted. Most of us are far too lazy/apathetic/zombied out on TV, consumption and junk food, to realise what threats to our liberty we are facing today.

''People have turned freedom into a licence and forget that freedom has its obverse--responsibility and obligation.''

--Desmond Tutu

Absolutely not. None of the above. However, illegals, and potential terror threats, being some Muslims, don't have, and should not have the same rights as legal law ABIDING citizens of the USA. They will, and should be investigated if they are thought to be doing suspicious activities, to harm the American people. We didn't start this thing. Evil Muslims did, but Americans will finish it!

Some rights damage your country at periods in history, such as giving up the right to talk about ongoing US military actions during a war but there is a limit where giving up your rights benefits no one other than the government. Up to that point giving up some rights benefits everyone.

no. giving up any rights tells the government you cannot live with freedom. once someone gives up any rights that reduces them to the level of a child. some people want a big parent government. personally, I would rather be dead.

Bush has the right to remain silent.

Bush's gulags have stripped rights away already. So has the FBI with their scandals. Congress is a bunch of well dressed idiots.