Believers and Atheists: do you know what the probablity is...?

you know what the probabilities are that the bible and the 'prophecies' it contains was in fact written over a period of time by men with their own agenda and often written a long time after the events described took place, and that these documents have since been edited, translated, interpreted, voted upon (canonization) and then translated and interpreted a couple more times until we get to the bible you now wave at us?

Just like the prophesies in the first part of the novel Nightfall came to pass in the latter part. Big deal. It's a work of fiction, you can have something predicted in the first part and then be fulfilled in the second part and it doesn't mean that it is a literal happening.

But then again, the bible isn't written as coherently as Issac Asimov wrote Nightfall because Jesus failed miserably at fulfilling some of the major requirements fro being a messiah. That's why the Jews reject him.

This is a loaded question. Which 8 prophecies are you speaking of first of all?

Secondly, it is well known that the people who wrote the gospel accounts we have today had access to and great knowledge of the old testament. Doesn't it seem reasonable that they could write them to match what they expected it to match? These people were not historians creating a reliable historical account. They were well aware that they were writing a religious mythology and therefore would reference older works to draw symbolism from.

Thirdly, the prophecies of which you speak were written in a broad fashion, and are highly interperetable. I cannot give you an off the cuff probability of this simply because there are far too many variables to make such an assessment. If i was forced to make one it would be extremely low.

Since you don't knoe he ever existed, or fulfilled any prophecies, using "probability" calculations is a waste of time.

You might read Schonfield's "Passover Plot" for an alternative view as to how someone could "fulfill" prophesies and not be a messiah.

The chance of any one man fulfilling just eight prophecies has been calculated by Peter W. Stoner in Science Speaks at 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 -- yet 60 major Old Testament prophecies, having 270 ramifications were fulfilled by the life of Jesus.

close?

It is kind of easy to fulfill prophecies in a work of fiction. Just look at the prophecies H. Potter fulfilled

He fulfilled none of them.

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The "Old Testament" says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."

And finally, Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Just because the bible claims jesus fulfilled some lame prophecy don't make it true.

That assumes that everything that was written about Jesus was true. If I write an autobiography I can make it so that I was a billionaire superhero who defeated Luthor and cured cancer.

actually, its pretty darn easy when you can alter texts at will to make them say whatever you want. Hardly impressive, except to the gullible