Do you agree with this non-feminist author that "men don't value the girl that pays"?

ksoileau: You ARE a schmuck.

I NEVER allow a man to pay. I pay for myself, and he pays for himself. When I start dating someone, I call it the "training" period. Men (even today) have been corrupted by their fathers; they pass chauvinism down from generation to generation. Too many of them have this "idea" stuck in their heads about how a woman is "supposed" to be or act; so the first thing I like to do with a guy that interests me (a very rare creature indeed) is blow all of those ridiculous preconceived notions out of the water. It's like training a puppy not to piss in the house; it takes time, and persistence; but it's worth it. A man needs to understand right from the beginning that I have absolutely no need for him; he is for entertainment purposes only; and I might drop him at any time, for any reason. This attitude makes them behave differently. Show them you have no use for them, and they will constantly try to prove that you do. Why do you think so many of them are on this board in the first place? This used to be called "Women's Studies." not "Gender and Women's Studies." The guys wanted to talk to us feminists so bad, they whined until Yahoo changed it. Why didn't they just ask for a Men's Studies board? Simple, because none of them would ever go there; they want to be around us, they want to force us to include them in everything we do. I don't know about you, but I won't.

Never put yourself in a position where you might owe a guy something: Pay your own bills, fix your own car, shoot trespassers, etc. Their argument gets thinner and thinner everyday. They hate feminists mainly because we are independent; they hate the fact that we don't really need them for anything; they're bitter about it. In a way, I understand how they feel; it does feel nice to be needed; but they've had thousands of years to treat us like weak, timid, pathetic, lapdogs who need their protection, so they'll just have to get over it.

Special occcasions like birthdays, or Xmas are fine for a SMALL, inexpensive gift, but that's it; and always return the favor. Keep things on an even keel.

EDIT- ksoileau:

ROFLMAO. There isn't a man on this board who knows the meaning of degradation bettter than a woman. Believe it. Men get their little feelings hurt one good time, and they run around crying, "Oh my god, she's degrading men!"

In the words of Yoda: "A f*cking break, give me!"

Women have been degraded consistently over centuries; to the point where some women (fools that they are) think it's ok.

IT'S NOT.

Do I think misandry is becoming increasingly acceptable?

Yes, I do, and it's funny you know, because men don't seem to like it much. After centuries of misogyny, somehow, men don't like it when the tables are turned on them. Go figure.

I'm an average, no nonsense, working class woman, but there's no shortage of men in my area who are interested.

You have slightly misinterpreted my 'training period." That simply consists of me showing the guy that my world does not, and will not revolve around him; he is not a necessity.

And no matter what you, or anyone says, they don't seem to mind it much. The men I know want a challenge; and I can certainly provide that with ease; and with pleasure.

I didn't find the first statement to be true when I was dating men. They usually liked it that I didn't assume or expect that they had to pay for anything or everything on dates.

In spite of how I act here, when I was dating, I would never make a scene, unless someone was screaming at me or something (which never happened). I was always happy to pay all, half or none of the date expenses. I would like to pay half, so it was clear that I was there to get to know the person, not spend money, but if they pushed it, I always said, ok, but I get to buy the next time. And I would.

Since I dated women in the past as well, I was use to paying half, or more, since I often based what you each paid for in a date on how much you made, so one person wasn't burdened down with debt. If it was a big deal, I'd just suggest free events, so I didn't embarrass my date.

So when I started dating men a couple of years ago, it was a big shock to find out how important it was for many men to pay for everything (I'm 49 and was dating guys in their 40's). I didn't feel comfortable, but I realized they were a lot more traditional than I was. If they were flexible, they bent a bit and let me pay for more and more until it was more fair. Especially if I knew the guy made a lot less than I did, I would suggest free/low-cost events, if they felt uncomfortable with me paying a lot. If they were totally inflexible, I didn't date them again.

I think its time to get rid of all such foolish rule. Let the new couple decide together who should pay. It may be one or the other person has far more money than the other. Or one of them, either one, may be under some financial stress. The "new rules" are really the actual rules any how. In real life, people rarely go by "the rules." The make up their own ways...and that, my friends, is "The Truth."///as Edith Anne would say and then stick out her tongue and give a raspberry...remember??

Any how, I would like to remind both men and women, to grow up and make your own lives according to what feels good to you. If you are too worried about what others think, that is how your life wil continue to play out...according to others rules..hold out for the ones who see things your way, because that is the way they really are. I have done that and have a perfectly wonderful man...You are all very powerful...go inside each day and meditate/comtemplate you own power...that is where all wisdom is. It is definetly not where others think...it is only where you think!

Back when I was on the dating scene, I’d offer to go Dutch on a date, especially if I knew the guy didn’t make much money, either. If he insisted on paying, then I would offer to cook him dinner at my house for another date in the future. Every guy I’ve ever dated thought this was great. It also helped me alleviate the guilt feeling of him forking out a bunch of cash for a dinner, when the relationship might not be going anywhere.

I also don’t like the idea of writing a book about “How to get a Rich Man”. Sure, it would be nice to marry a rich man, but you know what? Rich guys can spot gold diggers a mile away!

As a woman I can't answer the first part of your question but I absolutely disagree with the statement made by Donna Spangler about men not valuing a woman that pays. I don't think it has anything to do with a woman paying. I think it has everything to do with the fact that she is ready to duke it out and have a battle of the wills at the dinner table on a first date. I don't see much value in that type of personality myself.

As a woman I always offer to pay but if a man says it is on him or he has it covered or it is his treat or whatever I smile and thank him. I believe my mother taught me that those were called manners... something not many people have today apparently. If I were a man I think a woman INSISTING that she pay would be a huge turn off.

*Puck, you are an idiot. A man offering to pay for your dinner or opening your door is problematic why? It is not chauvinism. Please, get real... you have taken this one step further left than I even knew was possible! Why would you want to date someone who had no manners or showed no real interest in you? It seems you treat men the same way you claim all men treat women... as toys, useless, and for your entertainment/satisfaction.

He gets the privelege of paying for the first date if I like him. I know that most men view the first date as an investment and will expect dividends at some point. When I offer to pay my half, its a sign that there will definitely not be a second date.

With my current bf, I paid for the entire meal (it was a lunch date) and he left the tip. That kind of compromise was a good omen to me :)

I don't know that I agree with this. When I take a girl out, I always pay for it unless she makes a huge fuss about it. I'm old fashioned. So sue me. I think the guy should treat the girl, and she should decide if she wants to go out with him again. That way no matter what she chooses, she hasn't lost anything other than a couple hours of her life. After dating for awhile, splitting tabs or taking turns treating becomes more common because I understand that girls also want to treat the guy every once in awhile, and let's face it - it gets expensive. I appreciate when a girl offers to pay for the first date, but if she makes a big deal about it, I find it to be a huge turnoff. I'm not saying I wouldn't go out with her again, but if I was on the fence on whether or not I should hang out with her again, that would push me over the edge, and she would not get another date with me.

When I was dating, I always insisted I pay my share, and I would even offer to treat a few times (once, when I did this, and pulled out a hundred dollar bill because I'd just got paid, the guy I was with asked me if I was a stripper (lol). I just laughed and "Of course not, if I were a stripper I'd have a huge wad of ones!" He laughed, but still looked at me funny. As if, for some reason, I shouldn't have a job that paid well (that wasn't stripping). Still other guys would get quite offended if I offered, and would actually fight over the check! Anyway, FEMINISTS (true feminists, anyway) do the same.

Yes, there are some women who still think that men should pay. But they (like this author) are not feminists.

Frankly, I get tired of hearing "Feminists! If you want EQUAL RIGHTS, then you should realize we aren't going to pay for you dinner, or pull out your chair anymore!"

As if any of that has anything to do with being able to vote, having equal pay, or equal consideration. Or...as if we give a crap.

And listen to the guys: If we offer to pay we're fanatics, if we don't we're selfish b!tches...damned if we do, damned if don't. So stick to your principles girls, it only really matters to us anyway, obviously.

I have, perhaps, a different perspective on the who pays rule.

I date women, and there's no established social norm for who's supposed to pay between lesbians. Usually, offering to pay is a good way to signify that you're actually on a date and not just hanging out as friends (which can be confusing, trust me). Typically, if I'm the one who asked the other girl out, I'll offer to pay for some of the date. Then, what usually happens is the girl ends up offering to pay for something later, like I pay for dinner ans she gets the movie.

Personally, I think the stance "NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO PAY FOR ME" is going a little to far. Male of female, offering to pay is a way of saying "I'm glad you came, I enjoy your company enough spend some money on you." But then, I think the appropriate thing to do is reciprocate, either on that date or the next. And if you don't like the person enough to shell out some of your own cash, well, then you shouldn't be accepting their offer to pay.

But then again, I don't value money very much, so I see it as a small gesture rather than an offensive statement about my ability to take care of myself.

I will never understand the big fuss around this, as the fuss of who opens a door for you.

In my case I always try to offer to pay, not as a thing of power, but as showing that I care and I want to be nice to that person. It can be a man or a woman. Of course if the other person insists, I let them pay and I simply say "next time is my turn".

It is nice that someone offers to pay, as it is nice to pay too. Is a way of showing appreciation, or a way of saying "thanks".

Same thing goes about opening doors to others or any other manifestation of courtesy. It is just that, courtesy.

p.s. I don't agree with the main statement of your question at all, as it has no relation to the men I have met through my life, although perhaps there are some men out there that think this way

what a dumb statement to make!

I just take the money out and if the guy says he'll pay I say no. But I'm not going to get into an argument over it, if he really insists on paying. If I continue going on dates with the guy or if a guy friend pays for me, I'll treat him to something like a drink or pay for the movie ticket the next time round.