What happened to the old school soldiers?

Before you read this it must be said: I just turned 30 (ugh) a few days ago, I enlisted in the Army my senior year with the earliest reporting due date to boot after graduation along with 3 other friends. The 4 of us made up a large population of our senior class, seeing that there was only 26 of us. We all had older parents that either served or were drafted to do so. It is interesting to me to see this question brought up, because the 4 of us have been debating this lately. I believe I have had a unique perspective on this subject because of my parents. They (well it's just mom now) are old enough to be most people my age's granparents.....Basically, I got to see first hand what it was to be raised up by god-fearing parents with hard won knowledge, hard earned money, and even harder earned freedom. Versus being raised by what was known as Hippies.

The children raised by these people's whole perception of the world is distorted. That is, if they are informed enough to even percieve it in the first place. Sure we all laugh when Jay Leno goes to the mall and asks random people my age the most obvious important questions regarding the world they live in. Such as "who is the VP" and they giggle and say "Jerry Springer" or something equally ignorant. We all laugh at these people (and should), but this is a serious issue. It is these people who watches the nightly news once week and believes we are just terrorizing iraqi civilians, because the media spins some story about the Army destroying a mosque. They just conveniently dismiss the fact that 80 insurgents took the mosque over at gunpoint and faught us tooth and nail there. It's a guerrilla tactic as old as man, and the press still buys it because these people watch it. OK, ok I am straying off subject, but not by much.

I don't know what the hell some people expect. To see the world, go to school, get laid, get paid, and then get out? Quite frankly the thought of another WWII scale war frightens the piss out of me for America's sake, because the winner of those types of wars goes to the men with the guts, not the man with the guns and no guts. I suspect a mass defection/protest would happen if there was ever a draft. I mean these kids can't even meet the demands of the rear, god forbid he be expected to go in harms way. I have actually had kids ask me if there was anyway they could join the military, but have some sort of guarantee to not have to fight!

The main point of my answer is that if you cannot tell, some of these guys; like the "new recruit" posters you referred to on here, like who are asking if they can break a leg and get out out of the Marines etc..Should not have made it past the gates!!! They say recruiting goals have bet met yadda yadda, but are you aware of some of the provisions now being made to keep people in. And better yet, the offers being made to GET people in.

EXAMPLE: 18X program

My 3 friends and I wanted to be Army Rangers more than anything else in this world and you'd think we just asked the recruiter if we could have the keys to an Apache when we told him! We all had excellent grades, and were in excellent shape. I fully understand the recruiter had a job to do, but we all had to work really really hard to just get an option 40 contract to go to RIP. We all four passed Abn and RIP, but only two of us went on to the Ranger Regiment itself. To even think about the Special Forces you had to be an E6. To have a real shot in the Groups you needed to be an E6, Ranger, Jumpmaster, advanced NCO course, and oh yeah it'd be nice if you were just coming out of the Ranger Regiment. We worked our butts off, and finally got to go through the Q-Course in early 2000. To be quite honest, I don't think I was prepared enough professionally, and I know I wasn't mature enough before we were allowed our chance in 2000. I needed to first learn how to be a conventional soldier, before I could be an unconventional one. There was a method to this madness, we both needed this growth overall before we went on to the groups..... Well sometime later (I think 2004) the 18x program started a pipeline that shoots you right to Special Forces. Go to jump school, pass the Q-course and get your beret!! Don't get me wrong the program has produced some guys who after a lil rough edges were smoothed became operators, but it has allowed some to fall through the crack. Those who would have otherwise been discraded due to too many article 15's would not have been able to try. And the second chances the kids get these days!!! Oh man, those wanting to DOR (drop on request) are counseled first and given an opportunity to go back. Same goes for the SEALs. Some argue it is a money saver, but I believe it would be a life saver to go ahead and let 'em go, the other guys lives who might depend on "mr. I am having a bad day" are so precious, it is not worth risking. In war if you have a bad day you will get yourself and/or someone else killed. It is hard enough staying alive running on all 8 cylinders.

The SEALs have something similiar to the 18X program (discontinued). The SEAL challenge. Thank God SEALs maintain their high standards once accepted, this eliminates those few who fall through the cracks. The standards of being in the Ranger Regiment are still high thank goodness. But getting the equivelant of an option 40 (or guarantee to RIP) is easy as pie compared to ten years ago, but that is actually a good thing (as long as it is not easier to pass). We need all the Ranger's throughout the Army we can get.

I just hope the US armed forces don't start moving toward the very thing they are trying to get their soldiers to do: CONFORM.

The problem with the US Military today is it is so incredibly spread out trying promote democracy in every country in the world. Not to mention our huge deployment in Iraq.

To support this extravagance, we obviously need a great deal of soldiers. To be honest, the military sucks for most people until they have been in for a few years. Even nowadays when things are easier than before. In order to get the soldiers the military needs to support it's campaigns, it needs to provide some sort of incentive. Things like college assistance and career moves.

The hard truth is, today, we are not fighting for our country. We are fighting for everyone else's country. If new recruits want to seriously think about why they are joining, they should realize that very soon they will most likely be fighting and possibly dying for democracy in Iraq.

I honeslty dont know anyone who would die for democracy in Iraq, as a deployed soldier, I could care less. I do what im told because I also took an oath to obey the orders of the President of the Unites States and the officers appointed over me.

In order to facilitate the numbers the military needs, they have to provide incentives, make the military more appealing. One of the biggest things people are afraid when they think of enlisting is Basic Training. The military will start pushing more people through and lower standards to provide greater numbers. More fat and soft people will enlist because now they know Basic Training will be easier. Also the military is a good block to check on the resume and can get you into some great jobs later on.

The soldiers of WWI-II are really just good men that rose to an incredible occasion. If that kind of situation arose today, you'd be suprised at how many "wimps" would pull together.

You make a very good point, but the problem is not in the military. The problem is with our nation's leadership and ideologies and them sacrificing qaulity for quantity.

I don't know if I qualify as an "old school soldier," but I enlisted in 1960. I went enlisted though I had a degree because I didn't know if I wanted to make a commitment.

My enlistment bonus was the tacit assurance that they wouldn't try to kill me in boot camp.

My choice of duty stations was boot camp, "A" school, and then wherever they wanted to send me.

When I was about to reenlist, somebody resurrected my degree and recommended me to OCS.

I wound up retiring at 45.

I did three tours in Vietnam. I was also assigned duty in a few other places in the world.

The "bonuses" I received were dive pay, hostile fire pay, jump pay, hazardous duty pay, some HALO pay, a little sub pay... stuff like that.

Most of the "good stuff" I received when I retired. I got my Masters on the GI Bill. Had a little left so I got a Doctorate too. Bought a house with a VA loan. Based on my management in the Navy and my experience with the government got me a job with a big-5 management consulting firm. Stayed with them a little more than 10 years, got vested, and now have two incomes... for just getting up in the morning... or even staying in bed if I choose. I can travel just about anywhere in the world for free. I have access to military and VA hospitals and dental services. Next year I'm going to rent my house out and move into a VA retirement home. For less than I can get for rent, I'll have a place to sleep, surprisingly good food, and there's a ton of stuff to do. They're opening a wing for the guys coming back from the Middle East with "baggage." They'll have a chance to talk with "old school soldiers" who've been there and done that and have lived pretty fulfilling lives in spite of... or because of... their ordeals.

If it makes any difference, it bugs the heck out of me when kids ask questions about benefits, duty stations, pay, getting out before they get to boot camp. One guy even asked about the consequences of getting a dishonorable discharge.

On the other hand there are some pretty cool folks out there. I know a young lady who's in an ROTC program in New York. She's almost 19 and a junior in aeronautical engineering. She'll be a Navy pilot crashing and dashing on a carrier about the time some kids are still trying to figure out how to avoid military service.

I don't agree although this is true for some there are lots who are very strong and join just to serve their country!!! i mean that was my reason what i do in the military i could have done in the civilian world but i joined the military because i wanted to do my duty for my country because somebody has to do it and i was able to!! ill give you the military is much different these days but we still fight for the same reasons!! i have many military buddies who would tell you this!!! some who have gone to Iraq and had to sleep out in the dirt some who have been wounded and will never be the same who will tell you they don't regret it and would do it again many who are proud to say they defended our freedom!!! all proud to be American you obviously are not in the military because if you were you would know this!!! and we are all tough in our own way. i would like to see you go do what we do in the military today!!! its a hard life not to chosen for the wrong reasons but you see it is those wimps you talk about that don't make it through boot but then you must consider that there have always been people like that now matter what era or time!! im glad you say you support our troops but please don't disrespect us by calling us wimps!! for we are anything but!!! we are and always will be brothers in arms!! those of the past and the present and future!!! any good soldier will tell you that. hoo ya!!! and simper fi!!!! my friend!!!!

Amen to that old sarge. I have only been in since 2002, and every day I get more and more dissappoint at the quality of soldiers the Army is producing.

It really makes me sick when I see the way things are going.

I agree with you 110%

It also doesnt help that I re-classed from Field Artillery to a Poque Commo MOS though.

I went in the Army in 1975, Basic was Ft. Polk, La. Drills were fresh from Nam, gave out the Sh** and took none in return. We were classified as Vietnam era soldiers. If there was a dispute with recruits, the drills would get out the gloves and it was full battle in front of the Co. between the recruits bickering. Gave us a barracks, it never got dirty, we never used it much. We were always at ranges, and laying in mud puddles in May and June.

Mess hall? School? It was all in the field we ate at waist high tables, no chairs. Educated, yes, we were very educated when we left there as graduates. Quit? They dared a Candy a** to quit....

I must say, I would do it again!

I think you have a little miss-perception of the situation. The "old school" soldiers you talk about were a fairly random cross section of American society. A huge portion of them were draftees, including weaklings, obese ones, nerds, athletes, and any other description you can think of.

I entered the Army in 1970, did basic in mid summer at Ft. Jackson, SC and then AIT. I went through Jump School at Ft. Benning Ga., in November and December 1970.

I would like to tell you tales of how tough we had it and the misery we went through. But the fact of the matter is that I went through all of this smoking two packs of cigarettes a day, and drinking beer like it was water.

My son enlisted in 2002. He also graduated from Jump School at Ft. Benning. When I listend to him and his friends tell their tales of the training, even of basic training, I don't think I could have made it if conditions were the same. Some rules are different. Soldiers can't be abused. But the training is much tougher. All of our troops these days are volunteers, and if they have any brains at all, they are in condition before they enter the service.

The wimps don't even bother enlisting these days, whereas back in "the day" they were whipped into shape.

I don't think any of our soldiers are wimps these days. I have been to Fort Benning and to Fort Bragg a few times and have yet to see a pot bellied Sergeant, which was more the norm when I was on active duty.

If I had to go to war, I would rather go with these highly trained, highly fit troops of today, than with the reluctant or downright hostile warriors of the past.

John Ross Hendrix for United States Senate

http://www.hendrixcampaign.com/

I know right! I know a lot of people that joined and a lot of them decided to join based on the enlistment bonus and college money which is good but it's just a perk. I know a few of my buddies that joined the army for the right reasons. Two are going Ranger and one is going SEAL in the Navy.

In those times people were drafted, father knew best, and people could actually get a job if they wanted. Nowadays father's on crack or drinking, you gotta actually kill for cash practically which is why you might as well join the army, which is kinda like drafting... Oh and I forgot to mention the most important one: the average joe feels a lil unimportant because a nuke is defending america. Did I mention everything?

just remember the old army was 2 days before you entered into service

SSG ADA

US.ARMY