Hit me with any Hall of Fame players who had Hall of Fame careers as managers?

The only one I can think of that comes close is Red Schoendienst with St Louis. He won the World Series in 1967 and lost it in 7 games in '68. He won more than 1000 games as a manager in 12 full seasons and parts of two others.

On the down side, his winning percentage was just .522 and outside of those two years, never had a club finish higher than 2nd in the NL East. In my opinion, not good enough numbers to make it just as a manager.

I scanned the entire list of Hall of Fame players, and no other names jumped out at me as having had a meaningful second career as manager. Rogers Hornsby did win a World Series (St Louis) but was player/manager that year, and other years with at least three other clubs. Again, not a good enough record.

Personally, I think Joe Torre's career numbers as a player (over 2300 hits, 1100 RBI, career .297 B.A., 9-time All Star, 1970 NL MVP), are at least as good as a number of players IN the Hall as players, and he will definitely go in as a manager. Probably the most solid two-career man I can think of.

Gil Hodges would be a good answer, but he got robbed on both ends of this question.

He had a stellar career as a player with the Brooklyn Dodgers, but has never gotten his due with the Hall of Fame voters.

As a manager, he led the Miracle Mets to their World Series victory in '69, but suffered a heart attack and died at age 47 during spring training 1972. Who knows how much more success he might have had in what no doubt would have been another two decades of managing.

Joe Torre also great at both aspects.

Also, a note about the Babe Ruth discussion: Ruth did want to be a manager, and he finished his career with the Boston Braves because he was led to believe they would make him their manager (as well as give him a share of team ownership). Boston stiffed him though, and the greatest player off all time left the game under bitter circumstances. A shame.

I think Torre comes the closest. He had a HOF caliber career as a player, but will make it because of his managerial work. John McGraw had a pretty good playing career, though short. Not sure if he was ever a player/manager.

I think the reason you rarely, if almost never, see a great player become a great manager is because great players rely more heavily on instinct and ability rather than strategic play. They don't have the time to sit on the bench and pick their manager's brain during the game because, well, they're busy playing it. Often when someone excels at something it's difficult for them to pass that knowledge along to others because it came so naturally.

And as an aside, I imagine Babe Ruth would've been a terrible manager. Managers need to effectively manage people, know what makes them tick. Ruth was too much of a rule breaker. I can't see him being able to enforce rules he would be simultaneously breaking. Ultimately he'd lose control of the clubhouse.

I would make the argument that Billy Martin was a potential "Veteran's Committee" HOF player and still a potential HOF manager.

Martin was the starting 2B on three World Series Champion teams, hit .257 and was an All-Star a couple of times. He was widely regarded as a terrific fielder and was traded by the Yankees solely because of off-the-field occurrences.

Bill Mazeroski (.260 average) and Brooks Robinson (.267 average) both made the HOF because of their glove, not their bat.

Billy Martin then went on to win a couple of World Series as a manager. He was also known as a turn-around specialist and did an amazing job of pulling many teams from perennial losers to possible contenders.

Anyway, that'd be my candidate for the best overall player-manager combination.

I don't think there are any who are in the Hall as both. There's nothing to prevent that from happening, it just hasn't happened yet.

As someone mentioned already, Torre is going to be a HOF manager, and as a player had good enough numbers to be there but isn't.

Most great players don't make good managers (Ted Williams for instance).

Lots of lousy players became great managers (Lasorda, Walter Alston of the Dodgers come to mind).

But as for the last part of your question--"Give me your best argument for someone who would have been voted in as a manager if he hadn't already been elceted to the hall as a player.", there isn't any reason why someone can't be elected as a player, and then later as a manager. It just hasn't happened yet.

The only one that I can really find is Rube Foster from the ***** Leauges. He wasa start pitcher, coach and Manager. Other than that the managers in the Hall of Fame were not your star player type guy. One exception was outstanding career as a Catcher was Al Lopez who managed the Indians. Most star players can not relate to guys that can not do what they did as players.

I think Babe Ruth would have made an excellent manager had he not died young and chosen to become a manager He was a fine player known to be brash, outspoken and tough Just what is needed a potential HOF manager

The only one I can think of is Casey Stengel. HOF player - HOF manager