Jehovah's Witnesses... how can you deny Jesus (the Son), and still consider yourselves 'Christian'?

We believe Jesus is the son of God, brightest of his morning stars. God the Son is manmade terminology and DIFFERENT from Son of God. John 3:16, 17:3, Job 38:7, Rev. 22:16, etc.

Also....my answer about Michael on another post. Bible verses are from Bible Gateway, other references are from Methodist and other mainline theologians. I do not use JW publication cut/pastes online or on YA.

by debbiepi... Member since:

May 11, 2007

Total points:

6040 (Level 5) I had to make a further note. I'm a former Methodist and my dad was a preacher with 12-13 degrees including a doctor of Theology. (I have no family who believes that Jesus is God Almighty...even my Dad does not. He thinks it is crazy. He refers to it once briefly in his article on Jewish Race Fallacy at his website...he was a college professor for years also).

I grew up in the Methodist church hearing Jesus was Michael, that it was Jesus/Michael who had the argument about Moses body (Jude 9).

Here is the proof online (these Methodists don't seem to know much about him).

John Wesley's notes are online free at Christendom's websites. It is at

http://www.biblestudytools.net/Commentar...

Check Daniel 10 notes (esp. verse 13 and 5 and the introduction which tells about the son of God, Michael, appearing to Daniel here)

Check also Daniel 12 (esp. 1 where he refers to Michael as "Michael your prince, the Messiah shall appear for your salvation. "

This reference is at the popular Christian site Crosswalk I'm sure most have heard of.

Other mainline references that show Michael is Jesus are located there also. Such as Matthew Henry's of 1706 originally.

http://www.biblestudytools.net/Commentar...

See the bottom part of the Daniel chapter 10 reference

2.] Here is Michael our prince, the great protector of the church, and the patron of its just but injured cause: The first of the chief princes, v. 13. Some understand it of a created angel, but an archangel of the highest order, 1 Th. 4:16; Jude 9. Others think that Michael the archangel is no other than Christ himself, the angel of the covenant, and the Lord of the angels, he whom Daniel saw in vision, v. 5. He came to help me (v. 13); and there is none but he that holds with me in these things, v. 21. Christ is the church’s prince; angels are not, Heb. 2:5. He presides in the affairs of the church and effectually provides for its good. He is said to hold with the angels, for it is he that makes them serviceable to the heirs of salvation; and, if he were not on the church’s side, its case were bad. But, says David, and so says the church, The Lord takes my part with those that help me, Ps. 118:7. The Lord is with those that uphold my soul, Ps. 54:4.

See also Daniel 12:1-4 references

Jesus Christ shall appear his church’s patron and protector: At that time, when the persecution is at the hottest, Michael shall stand up, v. 1. The angel had told Daniel what a firm friend Michael was to the church, ch. 10:21. He all along showed this friendship in the upper world; the angels knew it; but now Michael shall stand up in his providence, and work deliverance for the Jews, when he sees that their power is gone, Deu. 32:3. 6. Christ is that great prince, for he is the prince of the kings of the earth, Rev. 1:5. And, if he stand up for his church, who can be against it? But this is not all: At that time (that is, soon after) Michael shall stand up for the working out of our eternal salvation; the Son of God shall be incarnate, shall be manifested to destroy the works of the devil.

Also in Henry's under Rev. 12 (last half of the chapter, note number 2.

2. The parties— Michael and his angels on one side, and the dragon and his angels on the other: Christ, the great Angel of the covenant, and his faithful followers; and Satan and all his instruments. This latter party would be much superior in number and outward strength to the other; but the strength of the church lies in having the Lord Jesus for the captain of their salvation.

Adam Clarke is also a big Methodist theologian and he has a famous commentary also.

http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/

He also mentions archangel signifies the Messiah in Daniel 10:13 comment on lo Michael

Other references also show Michael to be Jesus such as the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/isbe/

View the last paragraph under the Michael entry.

The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Re 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel (for a full discussion see Hengstenberg, Offenbarung, I, 611-22, and an interesting survey in English by Dr. Douglas in Fairbairn’s BD).

(early Protestant scholars fought the trinity in many cases)

eword commentary and gospelcom also says so under Daniel 12

http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/dani...

(It is another copy of Matthew Henry's).

To check for yourself in Bible commentaries, you can look at Daniel 10:13 area, Daniel 12:1 area, Revelation 12 (last half of chapter) or Jude 9.

To check in old Bible dictionaries or encyclopedias, look up angel or archangel or Michael. Often old libraries, used bookshops, library book sales will get rid of really old copies of early Protestant references in favor of new ones and you can buy them and check yourself or keep for references.

Thanks for letting me answer and add you as a contact!

Some further notes about arch/arche and archangel, God's sons, and Rev. 3:14, 22:16, Job 38:7.

Arch/arche does not just mean prime or supreme (most powerful). It means first or beginning.

Vines'....

http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/...

B1

arche means "a beginning." The root arch primarily indicated what was of worth. Hence the verb archo meant "to be first," and archon denoted "a ruler." So also arose the idea of "a beginning," the origin, the active cause, whether a person or thing, e.g., Col_1:18. In Heb_2:3 the phrase "having at the first been spoken" is, lit., "having received a beginning to be spoken." In 2_Thess_2:13 ("God chose you from the beginning"), there is a well supported alternative reading, "chose you as first-fruits" (i.e., aparchen, instead of ap' arches). In Heb_6:1, where the word is rendered "first principles," the original has "let us leave the word of the beginning of Christ," i.e., the doctrine of the elementary principles relating to Christ.

Rev. 3:14 refers to Jesus as the beginning of the creation by God.

Compare Vines' above and here

archomai denotes "to begin." In Luke_3:23 the present participle is used in a condensed expression, lit., "And Jesus Himself was beginning about thirty years." Some verb is to be supplied in English. The RV has "when He began to teach, was about thirty years of age." The meaning seems to be that He was about thirty years when He "began" His public career (cp. Acts_1:1). The AV has "began to be about thirty years of age." In Acts_11:4 the RV suitably has "began, and expounded," instead of "from the beginning." See arche, below, and REIGN, RULE.

That Jesus is the archangel is seen in other areas also.

Job 38:7 The angelic sons ALL are called sons of God (KJV) and morning stars (all languages). Jesus is said to be the brightest of these morning starts at Rev. 22:16 (any Bible). Satan and his demons are also called stars at Rev. 12:3, 4, 9.

Morning of course, refers to their being in existance at the dawn of human time, long before Abraham existed. And according to Wesley, stars are those (not literal ones, but the angelic ones) those who are in God's glory and like him.

Job 38:7 Wesley's Notes.

http://www.biblestudytools.net/Commentar...

Stars - The angels, who may well be called morning - stars, because of their excellent lustre and glory. Sons of God - The angels called the sons of God, because they had their whole being from him, and because they were made partakers of his Divine and glorious image. Shouted - Rejoiced in and blessed God for his works, whereby he intimates, that they neither did advise or any way assist him, nor dislike or censure any of his works, as Job had presumed to do.

Those who are taken to heaven from among human kind also will posses the divine nature, not being God Almighty or a Deity, but having divinity, being an immortal incorruptable spirit creature.

2 Peter 1:4 NIV

4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

New Century Version 2 Peter 1:4.

4 Through these he gave us the very great and precious promises. With these gifts you can share in God's nature, and the world will not ruin you with its evil desires.

All who live in heaven are of the divine nature. You can't live there if you aren't made like that. Exod. 33:20, John 1:18, Luke 24:39, 1 Cor. 15:50.

I keep giving all this (and more) research. People just don't seem to get it and ask over and over....

Debbie debbiepittman@yahoo.com

21 year Jehovah's Witness

First we do not deny Jesus (the Son).

Second it the teaching of the trinity that is the perversion of God's Word.

third, there is more proof that Jesus is Michael, than there is that Jesus is God Almighty.

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

(Romans 15:3-6) . . .” 4 For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope. 5 Now may the God who supplies endurance and comfort grant YOU to have among yourselves the same mental attitude that Christ Jesus had, 6 that with one accord YOU may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Christians worship the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

.

linnea is wrong. jesus is the arch angel michael. nearly every faith believes that. why? an arch angel is just a leader of angels. the leader does not have to be an angel themselves. it is stated very clearly n the bible who michael is. anyone trying to think of someone else being michael is an idiot. i come from both 7da & messianic faiths & have catholic background. we all know who michael is. that is jesus. i have also studied with JW's. & yes they do beleive he is god/son of god as well. the JW's have a lot of truth but they just like any faith do stray in many places. so far i find that the 7da's have the most truth out of the protestant faiths. the messianics are even better. they are not considered part of the protestant vs catholic battles though. we are on our own.

This argument is pounded day by day .

JW's do believe in and follow Jesus . They put faith in his sacrifice as the only way to eternal life.

They, the JW's and Jesus join together in worshipping Our Father Jehovah God.

Jehovah always was and will be..Jesus had a beginning ...he was a created being.

He was the fist angel Jehovah created and loved so much everything else was created for him. And since he was the firstborn of creation he was expected to make everything for Jehovah. He was the master worker....not the creator.

Michael was the foremost angel..and given a title accordingly..Archangel.

By the grace of God, sending his firstborn to die for us and buying back the sin of death that Adam put on us we are saved. We do not boast that we can earn our way to salvation. It is purely a gift of God.

God is allowing Jesus to read hearts of men alive and the ones that will be resurrected to see who will live forever and who will not.

your question is quite long and seems to branch off into many different things.

most importantly JW's DO 100% believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and not God himself, Jehovah and Jesus are 2 separate persons.

For a real discussion to answer your questions, all you have to do is contact one of the kingdom halls near you, since you are either a past JW, since you seem to have studied, or just have WT Cd-Rom or some of our publications, just please contact one of the Elders in the hall and go to there and talk to them about your questions, thats the best way to get info instead of a bunch of debates here esp from non-Jw's.

but keep on reading your Bible, it sounds like you do have a spiritual need and a desire. (Matt 5:3)

You are barking up the wrong tree, my friend, and make little sense to Vot.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus IS the Son of God, and faith in him is the way to God.

Trinitarians believe Jesus is GOD HIMSELF, so how can he be the "way to" God?

Go figure.

Saying Jesus was called Michael before he came to earth does not mean we "deny" him. Abraham was initially called Abram. Did the change in name make him a different person?

EDIT: For the 1000000000th time- Jehovah's Witnesses do not use ONLY the NWT. The Watchtower and Awake quote many different translations, we ourselves use many different translations. I personally have several ones, and there's hundreds of online versions too. We can prove what the Bible teaches from ANY translation.

The history of JWs in Russia begins in 1891. The NWT in Russian was released on 29th June, 2007 at 12:47 p.m.

What Bibles have the Soviet Union/ Russian JWs been using those 116 years???

EDIT: Believe you me, Vot does not get flustered or angered by strangers on Y!A. I'm in the happiest of moods right now, I just did my hair and I look FAB!!! :-)

My point was, if the Soviet Union/ Russian JWs did not have the NWT to use, how did they come to accept the teachings of the JWs in other lands (who according to you used ONLY THE NWT) and be able to preach to others for 116 years using OTHER TRANSLATIONS (which according to you READ DIFFERENTLY FROM THE NWT) and come to believe the EXACT SAME THING as the other JWs???

Wouldn't they have noticed that what the Watchtower says is different from what the Synodal or Makarios or other Russian translations say?

Get it now?

(Goes back to preening in front of the mirror)

You have been mislead, we do not deny Jesus. Actually, we try to follow his example to the greatest extent possible, that is why we preach door to door. Jesus told his disciples to do so Matthew 24:14

In my dealings with Jehovah's Witnesses, they have never denied Jesus. Just because they give him a different history than you do does not change their belief or classification as Christians.

In NO way do we "deny" Jesus. Why do you make claims not based in fact??

Adherents of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses certainly do NOT "deny Jesus the Son". Rather than pervert the Word of God, the Witnesses are actually unique among self-described Christians in that Jehovah's Witnesses actually do elevate the Bible above the human traditions, pagan false religion, and worldly philosophy which has been cherished by Christendom for centuries.

What do Jehovah's Witnesses believe about Jesus Christ?

Adherents of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses believe everything the Bible teaches about Jesus, and believe that the Bible is the only inspired infallible Word of God.

Jehovah's Witnesses teach that no salvation occurs without Christ, that accepting Christ's sacrifice is a requirement for true worship, that every prayer must acknowledge Christ, that Christ is the King of God's Kingdom, that Christ is the head of the Christian congregation, that Christ is immortal and above every creature, even that Christ was the 'master worker' in creating the universe!

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus the Son was created by God the Father, and that as a distinct person Jesus serves as God's primary agent. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is much more blessed and powerful than any mere angel, but they also believe that the terms "archangel" and "angel" are not inappropriately applied to Jesus (see 1 Thess 4:16).

There are dozens of Scriptures which plainly show that Jesus is lesser than (and subject to) Almighty Jehovah God the Father. Obviously, all of the authority which Jesus received was delegated to him by Almighty Jehovah (God the Father). Caps are added to some citations below.

.. ..(Acts 2:36) God MADE HIM both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you impaled.

.. ..(Matthew 28:18) And [the resurrected] Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been GIVEN me in heaven and on the earth.

.. ..(John 3:35) The Father loves the Son and has GIVEN all things into his hand.

.. ..(Acts 5:31) GOD EXALTED this one as Chief Agent and Savior

.. ..(Daniel 7:14) And to him there WERE GIVEN rulership and dignity and kingdom

.. ..(Matthew 11:27) All things HAVE BEEN DELIVERED TO ME by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son but the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father but the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.

.. ..(Philippians 2:9) For this very reason also GOD EXALTED HIM to a superior position

.. ..(1 Peter 3:22) [Jesus] went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers WERE MADE SUBJECT to him.

.. ..(1 Corinthians 15:25) For [Jesus] must rule as king until GOD HAS PUT all enemies under his feet.

.. ..(Psalm 110:1) The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord [Jesus] is: “Sit... Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

Incidentally, where is Jesus' exhalted position? It is NOT replacing Jehovah God, because Jesus remains humbly at Jehovah's right hand.

.. ..(Psalm 110:1) The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

.. ..(Ephesians 1:19-20) the mightiness of [God's] strength, with which he has operated in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places

.. ..(Acts 7:55,56) [Stephen], being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, and he said: “Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.”

.. ..(Matthew 26:64) Jesus said to him: “...From henceforth you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power

.. ..(Romans 8:34) Christ Jesus is the one who died, yes, rather the one who was raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God

.. ..(Colossians 3:1) Christ is seated at the right hand of God.

.. ..(Hebrews 1:3) [Jesus] sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.

.. ..(Hebrews 8:1) Now as to the things being discussed this is the main point: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

.. ..(Hebrews 10:12) But this man [Jesus] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God,

.. ..(Hebrews 12:2) Look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. ...he endured a torture stake, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

.. ..(1 Peter 3:22) He [Jesus] is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven