Philosophers, Atheists, Evolution Fans -- Answer this please?

Did you know that dolphins create circles in the water? They make funnels and enclose them into a circle then they play with them. They break them, or mold them. They seem to be appreciating an activity on a level that has nothing to do with survival or reproduction.... it is just simply playing. That suggests a greater consciousness then you give them credit for.

As to their (and other animals with larger than average brains) appreciation for beauty, we can not know. We assume that we are unique in this ability, however their is no reason to think this is the case. There is no evidence to suggest a dolphin doesn't see beauty in the sunset, or a gorilla in the trees, or a chimp in the night sky. We assume this only because they cannot tell us otherwise. It is an assumption born of nothing.

Assuming that you are correct in this assumption the great leap that you are talking about is a very small difference indeed. Once an animal has awareness of its self (as dolphins and apes do) .... the rest follows. The knowledge of self would lead quite intuitively to the next step which is the realization that others are unique individuals similar to yourself. When an animal realizes that he exists, and that other similar animals exist independently of himself it would be a small step to see the death of a tribe mate and come to the realization that he too will die. Once that occurs the rest is history.... with the knowledge of death comes the perspective of beauty (as all things will eventually be taken away they become more precious) as well as the preparation for a future event. Future events then need not be limited to death alone but to possible injury, or family, or whatever.

Basically I think that your initial concept that animals are drastically different in this capacity is incorrect and unsubstantiated. And even if you were correct it says little about the nature of evolution. A monkey doesn't have the intelligence of a Gorilla....... that does not mean they are not related.

It should also be noted that children do not have a good concept of future events..... they do not have a good understanding of their mortality nor of the beauty of events. Show a 3 year old a sunset and he wants to get the hell out of there so he can play with toys. This does not mean that a child is not human..... only that the child has not matured mentally and would not were it not for the mature adults around him.

Lastly there are very many adults that cannot understand beauty and have a limitted capacity for planning for the future. Again this does not make them inhuman, only dumb. I would argue that the majority of our species lack the very characteristics you describe and are far more similar to apes then you give apes credit for. We are not so great, and they are not so inferior.

I'm not a Dawkins admirer especially, but I'll try to respond briefly as a philosopher. Without equus of any heigth.

You say, "An ape can look at a sunset or smell a rose. What he can never do is reflect on how beautiful the former is, or write a song about the latter."

I don't know that apes can't reflect on the sunset.

Apes have been taught some language skills, but I suspect that haven't composed any songs yet.

Still ... whales sing. Very complicated songs, apparently the result of their own devising (to a greater degree than are birdsongs) -- and some, for all I know, reflect upon the odors known to them.

If only whales knew the smell of roses.

My point isn't an atheistical one. It is religious and vitalist. All of life is sacred. All of life, one might say, is divine. Drawing sharp distinctions between ourselves and other creatures fails both as science and as religion.

Aren't we trained to answer respond to commands, play computer games, solve problems and speak a language(even sign language)? When driving a car and you see a red light, do you sit back and go through the a though process of "gee that is a red light, I may wish to apply pressure to the breaks and slow my vehicle down to a complete stop" or do you just react and Stop? Our world is nothing more then reactions. There is no proof that other animals don't have a concept of self-consciousness. I'm not fluent in ape speak so I'm not sure if they are "singing or reciting McBeth" I have spent time at the Great Ape Trust in Des Moines Iowa and a gorilla on loan once referred to a picture of her pet kitten as a "pretty kitty" Plus many people have faith in a "God" because they are unable to explain things and instead of pondering what is going on they created a higher being in an image of themselves to create comfort in an unknown. Sadly no answer given on yahoo answers will be pleasing enough to you so that you can feel that you one upped the philosophers, atheists and evolution fans.

The whole premise of your argument is that only humans possess self-awareness. You have provided no proof that other sentient beings do not possess consciousness, except you saying so. You will have to provide sources. And as none of us have had the direct experience of being a monkey you will be hard pressed to find concrete proof.

However through observation we can see that animals do have a sense of time, of past and future, they do remember things or people or places that were, for example, harmful and some animals like cats are aware of the fact that they will die.

But your argument that a monkey can be aware of a rose and not be aware that he or she exists smelling the rose is absurd.

As well, your argument that because animals do not have the functionality of humans, makes them unconsciousness is totally unfounded. And your argument that animals are only taught things and therefore is not proof that they are conscious is not right either. Precisely because they are taught suggests they have memory and a Self that remembers. Humans are taught most things too. And just because a human can manipulate matter differently than a worm, does not make the human any more conscious of himself or his environment. In many cases it is quite the opposite. People seem live in a self important daze barely aware of what they are doing or where they are going. It is only because of learned mechanisms that keeps us from destroying ourselves.

So I would conclude that consciousness pervades everything to some degree or other, even plants, that is that God manifests on all levels of existence. To say God exists on one level, that of humans and not on another, that of animal or plants is arrogant.

Chimpanzees, dolphins and elephants recognise themselves in a mirror (no other species are known to do this). Does this mean they have a concept of self? How do you, on your "intellectual clydesdale" know that they have no appreciation of beauty or other "metaphysical" concepts? Frans de Waal in "Primates and Philosophers" argues that chimps also possess a morality which is more than a veneer. The present work being done on human consciousness will produce results which will very soon put the burden of proof on the godbotherers.

human self consciousness is a product of higher brain functions and more brain wave activity.

higher brain functions and more brain wave activity come from the brain.

the brain is a physical organ. it can evolve the same way wings, gills, or opposable thumbs can.

now, you explain to me how you could be so vain as to think that a supreme being would make you in his image and sit around and watch you all day because you're sooooooooooooooooooo interesting,

and yet still be so insecure as to think that you are so flawed that you cannot be the highest form of life out there (hence the supreme being)?

could you just be an egomaniac with an inferiority complex like all the other creationists?

*mounts up on intellectual high horse, rides off into intellectual sunset*

Human consciousness transcends any degree of consciousness seen in early humans or present in the animal world, because of two factors. First, at some point in our history we became aware of the passage of time. And secondly, we gained an awareness of self, as different and distinct from all other things and beings. The awareness of the passage of time and the awareness of self likely happened somewhat concurrently. They are both the result of the refined prioritized emotions and the resultant genetic constructs becoming increasingly more complex. The human conscious mind evolved as a result of increased stress caused by the ever increasing complexity of the primates and early human social interaction.

From what I understand, self-consciousness is the ability to identify yourself as an individual. Just because other primates lack specialised vocal apparatus doesn't mean they aren't capable of this.

It seems to me that you're just assigning some mystical quality to human consciousness that cannot be properly defined (at least in your eyes) and therefore cannot be demonstrated to exist in other primates. Just get over it dude, humans aren't /that/ special.

'An ape can look at a sunset or smell a rose. What he can never do is reflect on how beautiful the former is, or write a song about the latter.'~Oh? Prove it.

'The burden of proof is on YOU evolutionists and atheists to explain how human self-consciousness somehow "evolved" from the brains of apes.'~Wrong. We have no such burden of proof. That's not how science (which you clearly know little about) works. How about you try proving that it's impossible? (And beware of arguments from incredulity.) And, btw, "evolutionism" and atheism are not related~one more thing you're confused about (to put it kindly).

You speak of the burden of proof. However, in scientific inquiry, "I don't know, yet." is a perfectly acceptable answer. To say, I don't know how our kind of consciousness evolved, does not equal proof that therefore God must have granted it to us. If God did grant us our (seemingly) unique selfawareness, which God was it? I vote for Shiva, one of the principal gods of the Hindu pantheon, and in the textbook view of Hinduism, he is one of the 'trinity' of Hindu gods, of which the other two are Brahma and Vishnu. Shiva is represented as the Destroyer, Brahma as the Creator: Vishnu holds the universe in balance, acting as the Preserver. If you think of all the destruction our consciousness has wrought, Shiva seems to me to be the most likely culprit.