Religious and Atheist, are we that different?

Would we need laws if people always did good?

Unfortunately many people are always looking for the loophole which leads to more and more laws. For awhile part of initiation into gangs was murder because for minors, if they were even caught, the consequence was just juvenile hall till 18 or the very worse, 21.

And I think that spanking a child just teaches the child to not get caught, to hide what they really do from the parents. They become really good at sneaking.

Personally I love the simplicity of the Golden Rule which has been discovered in nearly all cultures regardless of religion (or lack of one):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity

Your particular beliefs as detailed are admirable (and lovely) but are they religious based or are they attributed to your religion because that's so much a part of you?

http://www.primatesworld.com/Shadows.html

Does creed have to be religion based or does religion co-opt more than just holidays? ;)

Theists often have a hard time divorcing themselves from their own beliefs -- which are socially enforced -- to understand those beliefs don't apply to those who don't believe them. Threats of he** if one doesn't believe are a perfect example. I've also heard atheists asked why they love the devil.

Even "belief" is an abstract built around theism so to ascribe non-belief to atheists is to assign a theistic view.

One thing I've notice is many atheists feel Christians will commit all sorts of atrocities on the belief they need only ask for forgiveness to be absolved.

Religion is very shame-based in the US, even the Catholic Church for instance refusing Kerry and later Obama voters communion:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/182820_bishop2...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-11-13-p...

Jehovah Witnesses in particular struck me as having a very vengeful God.

But then there's Santa morals... naughty or nice, one will selfishly receive if s/he *is* good (interestingly not *does* good).

Doing the correct thing can often be harder than doing wrong, in fact usually is... since it's harder to work for a wage than it is to just steal for instance.

What if good was enough? Would we need charity, would we have corporations, would we still have wars & suffering?

Punishment certainly works to suppress good such as during the holocaust, the Sudan, slavery, and so much of this last US presidential regime as some of the big ones that flourished because of countless everyday good that did not happen because of the social consequences.

But yeah, doing good is being happy because it brings a deeper sense of peace and often requires releasing selfish desires which is very freeing. A lot of people feel very spiritual about it.

Personally I flirted with the idea of atheist not realizing there didn't have to be an either/or (the limits of language on our understanding). It took me a while to find that which is spiritual to me or even what that could mean. But I also can't wrap myself around the idea that we just stop being, no longer exist when our bodies fail. There seems to be an energy which I believe is the life force, spirit, soul though I do wish I understood why we hold on to the physical so hard.

There's a lot more to say about that subject in particular... :)

Regarding the subject of your question, people have a lot more in common than not... and maybe that's why we notice the differences more. What I've noticed is whether we get along or not may hinge on what we can see in common rather than that which is not, that which makes us different. Yet differences are what makes us interesting and fun and exciting. But it is being different that causes a lot of insecurity too which gathers other negative emotions...

But, the vast majority of us are... average (on the whole). That's why there is average, bell curves, means, middle ground, centers. With average though comes extremes, standard deviations, the "unusual" and because they can be so flamboyant, stick out so much those are the ones that get noticed. Those who shout from rooftops, tilt at windmills, may get noticed but also ironically dismissed and ignored. Those who spout on the internet may not be representative at all since the majority are probably busy just living their lives.

Given all that one might ask you why you are Christian. What is it that makes you believe? :)

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Peace and blessings be upon you.

"To have morality is to act according to the things we know are good, and to do them regardless of punishment or reward - sometimes the moral, decent and right thing to do will bring you punishment instead of reward".......this is the most part i liked in your discussion.

By the nature or the instinct we know what is the right and what is the wrong ,and all beliefs say this word, Do the right and don't do the wrong..

But the man who do the right and this bring punishment to him in his life ,and if he have no idea about presence of God or (justice as we define the God),will feel that something wrong about him .

and who do the wrong and find the reward for that ,will never stop..and for this cause the God say :"Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warning"..

And if there is no punishment and reward the Justice will not be acheived.

Who own the hell and the heaven is the God: So believing in him is the most important step, i see that not logic to deny the God and ask for the heaven.

Supernature ,or supernatural Power.. None of us know what is the Self divine ,how it is ...but we can say ,he is not a human being or an idol ..

The Important that we believe the Power who Control this world by its Creatures:plants ,galaxies and everything in it.

The last Prophet Mohammed didn't make a separate religion but came to say that all religions are one Religion ,all prophets and messengers wanted us to worship the God :

Surah 2:[62] Those who believe (in the Qur-an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Atheists to believe or not ;it is their matter .

The God when created this world ,have determined who in the heaven and who in the Hell ,and even said to the prophet mohammed that "even you can't force people to belive".

Surah 10:99 :If it had been thy Lord's Will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! Wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!

Surah 2:256 :Let there be no compulsion in religion.

It is not a fight between of us ,believers and unbelievers ,We can be together one hand in the life:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSq8LoIy7QY

The God said :

42:20 : To any that desires the tilth of the Hereafter, We give increase in his tilth; and to any that desires the tilth of this world, We grant somewhat thereof, but he has no share or lot in the Hereafter.

i think this is just enough.

I really agree with most of what you say. Just a note though, Catholicism preaches that you must do the right thing according to your conscience, AS WELL AS the consequences. So I think the church must be given that credit first. But other than that, I have often wondered the same things. Watch the movie "Heaven and Earth" it is absolutely beautiful. This movie has premium cinematography and mentions the concept of karma (more specifically how bad things happen to good people, and what we can do if this happens to us...learn or resent?)

I really wonder the same things as you sometimes, and I too am a Catholic raised, yet open minded person. xx

In metaphysical terms, like most western contemporary philosophers, my beliefs pertaining to religion are a bit of a splodge, clear to me but taking a lot of words to express clearly. I'll go through your beliefs one by one:

- suffering is real and you can deal with it.

Yes, my answer being basically through Stoicism, with some reservations about suffering being an essential part of human being and the emotional response being an important part of a balanced life.

- to be happy and to be good are two sides of the same coin.

Yes, Stoicism again. Virtue is perfected prudence and the highest forms of happiness are not based on materialism. Maslow and all that, you know?

- other people's happiness is as important as my own.

Concerning the higher states of happiness, yes. Altruism is to the other as prudence is to the future.

- love connects me with all other beings, liberates me from my ego and enlightens me.

See above.

- to love = to be good = to be happy.

To an extent, but love can be selfish unless it's for all of creation. This may amount in practical terms to love merely for the whole human race because of the homoeostatic nature of the biosphere - that's a religious belief on my part.

- awareness is as important as kindness.

Yes, because awareness helps empathy to develop, and because bad stuff can be going on about which i know nothing. It's my duty as a citizen of the cosmos to stay reliably informed.

- the existence / nonexistence of the supernatural is not an essential question, my I am essentially curious

Actually, i don't agree. I think science is influenced by social and political forces. I'm an ex-academic and i've experienced academic groupthink and career pressures at first hand. It isn't insulated from human behaviour. Consequently, certain phenomena are rejected out of hand when they clearly exist without being examined rigorously, and some of these could be vital to making the world a better place. For instance, i strongly suspect that the power of prayer is an emergent supernatural property of religious communities rather than theistic in nature, and this could be harnessed to the benefit of society. Without a rigorous approach to this, however, it gets sidetracked into vague and waffly New Age thought, which is disorganised and discredited.

- reason is not an enemy of emotions, it complements emotions, it tunes in emotions.

The emotions determine the nature of reasoning. There are suspiciously close parallels between Kantian categories and Freudian ego defences, for example. There is no rationality, only rationalisation, if you want a slogan. People subconsciously choose to believe what justifies their social situations and this is inescapable. The closest you can get to objectivity is to acknowledge your own emotional bias.

- mental and physical health are the foundations of spiritual health

Not quite. Suffering can lead to wisdom and ill-health can be socially defined, for instance with mental "illness". If someone has a digestive problem due to lactose intolerance, their body is rejecting inappropriate and harmful components in their diet, so they aren't so much ill as not listening to their bodies. Then again, there is a symbolism in some illness. I have IBS because i push my emotions into my guts and reject them as diarrhoea. If i acknowledge my emotional discomfort, the symptoms disappear, so my "illness" is a learning experience for me. However, it's important not to take this too far because there's a danger of blaming people for their poor health.

"And that is what happens with these people that say "be good or you will go to hell", "convert or you will go to hell". Someone that does something out of fear of going to hell is not making a moral decision. To have morality is to act according to the things we know are good, and to do them regardless of punishment or reward - sometimes the moral, decent and right thing to do will bring you punishment instead of reward."

This is very poignant. I find it startling when theists use threats to elicit moral behaviour in people. I fhtey would stop and think for just a second or two, maybe they would realize the folly of their actions.

i think you would agree with me on this, it would be more a definition than an opinion if you ask me but its not like i know every thing

but we are all the same we think in different ways based on every little thing that made an affect on our life's or things that didnt and how we interpreted them so in an outside the box sort of view religion is only a word for an assortment of beliefs dealing with some unknown power

its like asking if surfers and swimmers are different (mentally, dont get lost in misinterpretation) they just veiw the water from different angles wich best benefits there interests

as to your list

1. true, it may easily be overcome by the mind

2.my favorite original philosophy, not one statement on a persons mentality can be identified for a whole, as in, not every one thinks happiness comes from goodness, ex, greed

3.it was nice to hear that, but what if something happens to your love?

4.false they do not correspond, they can be separate

5.i think awareness is an aspect of kindness, for most ppl whom iv noticed are not verry aware tend to be quite rude and have verry lw morals

6. nothing is an essential question honestly other than our purpose wich is to live, do wut ur doing, ur doin it rite now, as long as u dont kill urself, ur on the right track, well only if u belive in what ur doing, besides killing urself, or another, for you are hurting the greater goodness, tho i do believe in the supernatural and practice it quite often. fun stuff ^^

7. actually my emotions are hating my reasons rite at this verry moment for ther is a girl that i absolutely love and she loves me too but there's a reason that pl dont believe in our love and it hold me back

8.mental and physical are almost the same thing mental is basically spiritual and physical because it is you brain doing things but your spirit is who u are and your consciousness and physical is any thing u can touch obviously, tho i must agree, but i am hesitant due to the un knowledge of the word foundation

i pretty much agreed with everything you just said and you put it into better words than i probably could have.

i think the only real difference when it comes down to the beliefs themselves, that one believes in god the other doesn't the rest are beliefs on an individual basis.

i don't really know if im making much sense in responding to your question seeing as to how i am very tired... but i hope so lol. its good to see thoughtful people such as yourself in this section, i would be here more often if it weren't such a war zone and there were more thought provoking questions.

"- suffering is real and you can deal with it

- to be happy and to be good are two sides of the same coin

- other people's happiness is as important as my own

- love connects me with all other beings, liberates me from my ego and enlightens me

- to love = to be good = to be happy

- awareness is as important as kindness

- the existence / nonexistence of the supernatural is not an essential question, my I am essentially curious

- reason is not an enemy of emotions, it complements emotions, it tunes in emotions

- mental and physical health are the foundations of spiritual health"

These are not religious beliefs

They are well placed, rational and admirable human truths

Nothing to do with god

Just one huge difference!!

Atheists and all the other religions get on together, do not force their beliefs on others and respect in most cases human rights.

Sadly christians try to force their religion on others and abuse their human rights to freedom of religion and from religion!!

So the big difference is really that christians seem to have taken up terrible human emotions and abandoned the loving god to persecute others!!!

I agree with you.

There are extremists on both sides, I am tolerant of religious people (I can't honestly say I accept the ideas of creationists though).

The best point I think you have made is that the people with true morals have their morals, not through fear, but because they understand what will make them happy.