Where does one draw the line between "ART" and "HATE"?

I don't think hatred should ever be associated with acts of compassion and harmony. The promotion of such iniquity through music, then followed and practiced by the fans or the interested shows how low people can get.

And these people do not settle with privacy or secrecy or simply keeping their adversarial thoughts to themselves, they wish to expose their beliefs and oppositions which in most cases results in them receiving the exact reactions they please, still pushing them further across the line, increasing their aversion towards the religions and the followers and wanting to show more of their anger through whichever creative way they could. If these people had no support or reference, they would have kept low for their own sake.

The message matters, it surely would put thoughts into your head, possibly make you reconsider if you're not already a satanist. Its a bit like how MCR fans tell you how they can relate to the music, the musicians, the fans and the overall picture, in which they later form their not so little cult and hate on everyone contradicting their musical taste. It's similar in a way.

Personally, I don't mind viewing or listening to anything of that sort, God Dethroned promote ideas against my beliefs and that doesn't stop me from being a fan. I listen to their music without paying any sort of immense attention to the intentions passed on to the listeners. That's as far as I could go, but when it comes to flat out racial hatred, which is completely unnecessary as it is not a form of religion or practice but more like utter disgust shown towards the human race, then I know I do not have to face this hate and could easily disregard this vexation.

I've never even heard of this "artistic expression of hatred and animosity". Sounds a lot like made up piles of crap.

Take this guy for example. Way to be aware and knowledgeable. Pure intelligence, don't you think?.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=us...

These thoughts are bound to have come up to them one way or another, be it music, books or the internet. For them to have been ignorant and gullible enough at first to have started pursuing these facts/beliefs (no offense to you), then it seems pretty clear that they will still be ignorant in most other fields as well.

I mean no offense to anyone. These are mere words, do not take it personal.

And with all of that senseless rubbish I just said, I do not despise satanists nor am I religious.

I think that there is a big difference. The problem is that most "fluffies" call themselves "Eclectic," which confuses the issue. A fluffy is someone who has no grasp of history, and very little understanding of the Craft, but refuses to learn. They think that Wicca is whatever they want it to be, and that anyone who tells them otherwise is intolerant, judgemental, or dogmatic. They are, on the one hand, very close-minded to certain books, authors, and traditions that they erroneously think are "Dark," and on the other hand, so open-minded that their brains have fallen out. For some of them, Wicca is a political statement. For some it justifies their animosity against Christianity, or against Men, or against their parents, or against the "Normals" in general. For some it is fantasy fulfillment. It makes them feel like they have control in an otherwise overwhelming world where they previously felt completely powerless. Some have lost touch, to some extent, and think that they're living an episode of Charmed, or they can't tell the difference between Wicca and a D&D game -- the sorts of people who cast spells with a d20. Some fluffies are simply young dabblers -- some will grow out of it, and some will grow into it. Others are simply posers who are using the Craft to look cool. So the difference between an Eclectic and a Fluffy is whether or not you know what you're doing, or care to. An Eclectic takes an experimental approach to Magick, using what works from a variety of traditions. Eclecticism takes a lot of research, a lot of work. Fluffies often call themselves "Eclectic" because they think it excuses them from doing the research. But, as the old saying goes, you have to know the rules before you can break them.

You always have the most interesting questions.

Personally, I don't care about lyrics.

Art is a form of expression. That could be with religion, culture, race, politics, etc.

But even if I disagree with a song, I will still listen to it.

Though if it is bashing a certain religion or something, I think it might bother me. But if say, a member of the bands was racist, but did not show it in the music, then I probably would be affected too much.

But I mainly listen to my music for the music, and not the lyrics. Although lyrics are important, they *usually* come second to guitar/bass/etc parts for me. Of course, that depends on the band. I'm not gonna listen to the Ramones for the crazy guitar riffs, ya know?

Well I kind of got off topic, but my main answer is:

Art is a form of expression. You can express hate through art, and some choose to do that.

If that doesn't quite answer the question I apologise.

Well, first of all I would like to say that I really do think hatred can be an art. As much of an art as talking about love to be honest. I can see why people would not like it as a form of art but not still an art in my opinion.

For some reason I do listen to the music of bands like Burzum who are racists. I HATE racists and I think there is almost no more ignorant kind of people than racists. But, I just kind of try to block out what I know they are saying cause I do like the music. Although, I would never support them by giving them even one penny of my money. A view on youtube is the most I will give them.

I can't even understand what Burzum is saying so that helps me block out all of the ignorance. But, I even try to block it out whenever I can understand the lyrics. There's a song by a band called Elysia called "Incinerate" (I will link it below). And there's a line in the song where there is a breakdown and the lead singer goes "Who's the f*cking f*gget now!". I hate that lyric cause I don;t use any words like gay or f*gget. But I still found myself growling that line in school today but it is a great breakdown and very epic!

I know, it's kind of hypocritical but I think that all just proves that I'm way more about the overall music than the lyrics.

The song I was talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IYzr71q1TQ

I think that there is a fine between the two. The real question is, are the telling a story or is that what they believe. Slayer's song Angel of Death is about Josef Mengele. It is a story about a total bastard in world history. Some Oi music is performed by Neo-Nazis and that is a lifestyle and not just story telling. Rap music has the same problem. The short answer is that there is a line between the two, but it is sometimes a fine line.

To me, I feel that a band has the right to express themselves in any way they wish, for I strongly believe in the freedom of speech. In my opinion, every band has the right to express whatever their heart so desires, be it distasteful or otherwise. If a person wished how to express their desire to have incestual love with their sister, that's fine by me, for I will simply choose not to listen to them. I know that I am set strongly enough in my beliefs so as to not allow a song or band to sway my opinion.

However, I draw the line for what I listen to at blatant anti-Christian lyrics (such as with some Vital remains songs, though I'll still listen to other songs on the cd) and racism or certain degrees of sexism (I still like Belphegor, though, despite their very sexual themes).

Hatred is art when YOU agree with it. To the people opposing you, it's simply hatred.

Although, if the title of the song isn't too offensive, and I can't really understand the lyrics anyways (you know how some metal is), chances are I won't really care enough to learn the themes being preached as long as the music is good.

Hello Peaches

In my opinion if a bands lyrics exult, praise, give glory to Satan or talk in any way about the Satanic bible or church, any kind of satanic cult or active organization in the under-ground. No matter how disturbing or inappropriate that falls under the Spiritualism category. Yes even Satanism. Now if the lyrics are going into Human or animal sacrifice or any kind of Violent innuendos or extreme sexual innuendos that for sure is offensive, inappropriate and NOT RIGHT.

The lyrics expressing hatred and bigotry toward Blacks FOR SURE falls under Hate Racism and is UNACCEPTABLE in my opinion.

I'm in the same boat as you. Even IF I wanted to listen to those sort of bands, I couldn't do so comfortably, knowing that what I was listening was spreading hate through their music.

And well, the only way I can explain myself is through art, not music. I've used images of Nazis and Hitler in something I was working on, but I had a purpose for it, and in no way do I support ANYTHING like that. So, if that could be somehow translated over to music, I /would/ understand.

Does that make sense?

But in music I draw the line where preaching pure hate and evil is an integral part of it.

The definition of art is so subjective and it's one I'm not really comfortable using no matter what. I don't feel I'm ever qualified to make such a judgment.

And it's absolutely your right to avoid anything involving those topics, KP. I know there are certain topics that I find to be *personally* offensive that I would never endorse or support as well. If that makes me closed-minded too, I'll wear that badge with pride. My beliefs are mine, and I stand by them despite if it may affect how a certain group views me.

People have a right to express any opinion they wish to here in the States and as morality is determined by environment, or the community-at-large, they have every opportunity to find a place where their ideas are accepted and embraced. But with the right to express those ideas comes the rights of others to dismiss them...no matter what side of the fence they sit on.

Might makes Right? Like King Arthur? XD

Eh I dunno, this is an old argument that never seems to go anywhere. You can't force someone to listen to something they don't want to. (Well not YOU you but you in general you). So why bother? I can get it. Mothers might not want to look at paintings that depict eviscerated babies; animal lovers will probably detest watching a movie in which a dog is severely abused. Etc. There's not much difference. If a person is offended by a message in a song, that's their own thoughts/feelings, not yours. Let them choose not to listen to it, and don't bug them about it. (again, in general you xD)

Me personally, well, I don't really care but honestly how many pop songs do you find that tell people to kill their mothers or something? I like some hip hop and stuff but even those stupid stereotypical songs don't bother me, because it's funny to see how some people are willing to act like a damn fool just to get some fame and money.

As for the line between hate and art .... well ... I dunno, it can be difficult. It all depends on the society/conditions a person is raised in, really. Something we might consider to be vile and horrid might be the norm to another person, and vice versa. I can't really say "THIS is wrong!" any more than I can say "THIS is what you should be doing!", nor would I want to. I have my own views and opinions about things, and many of them might be expressed by a good portion of others, but in the end I can't really do much to change others' views, especially if they're pretty extreme. Eh. Human nature, I suppose.

I hope I answered right lol. Let me see if I can find some links or something.

*Ugh, I'd forgotten about this. Just read it.

http://www.progressiveu.org/174720-prussian-blue-t...

I'm thinking the parents are probably a major influence on this, but even so. Hitler smiley face t-shirts? C'mon now. Not cute, not amusing.

I wondered if maybe expressing hate about racism or some such thing would qualify, but you know, hate shouldn't really be used in any case. It just encourages more hostility and distrust. I say shouldn't, but I would probably listen to a song that expressed hate over something that I strongly dislike myself. People shouldn't do bad things but THAT'LL never happen, so it's hard to say things based on how it should be rather than how it is.