Training a base martial art versus multiple arts?

I do apologize for not answering early, Clowns is right I am hardly ever on here during the weekend, unless alcohol is involved.

Before I would answer, just want to point out some great answers above, more importantly, for all the "supposed" answerers there are on here, notice how few people actually responded to your question. (Supporting evidence of the real practitioners versus the fanboys)

Moving on..

While I think a certain bit of this depends on the individual, some people are more suited to multitasking or have more time to devote.

One thing I feel I have to point out, someone who feels that "With proper instruction, you won't need anything else". I completely disagree with this.

I have been honored with some AMAZING instructors. World reknown people. But the truth of the matter is you are always going to be limited by what the instructor knows, the skills that fit his personal style.

For example, I came up most of my Judo life with 3 different instructors, each one had different set of skills, and an entirely different way of playing Judo. Our club produced 2 multi time Olympians, many National Champions, and 2 pro MMA fighters. The credit to the club was the different approaches. Let's call them instructor A, B, C.

A: Was old school Japanese. Very rigorous training, lots of dirty tricks, a lot of left sided throws, he was a lightweight.

B: Was a heavyweight, who played basically as a middleweight his whole life, highly decorated, EXTREMELY technical, very graceful. You never felt him coming, you just flew.

C: Was a power player, and Ne waza guy. He also held dan rank in other arts. He played as a heavyweight and is one of the most respected coaches in the US.

Now, if I were to have learned exclusively from Coach A: I may have missed out on some of the techniques and ways that heavyweights move, what throws are best for them, and what throws don't work for them. I would learn only what he knows, and would have missed out on a lot of new techniques.

If I were to have learned exlcusively from any one coach in that aspect, there are other parts I could be missing, other ideas of how to do things other perspectives.

Even still I see great leaps in ideas and on my Judo after studying with someone else who has a different take on a particular technique or range.

The same as throughout my MMA career, I prefer not to learn from just one guy in each speciality, but try to get as much instruction as I can. I stick with one guy, but I go to seminars, I got to neighboring clubs I get different perspectives, different specialties even in the same range of combat. And that makes me a stronger member of my own dojo/club, because I am able to bring these fresh ideas, techniques and perspectives to my own class, and my own teachers.

You know a truly good instructor when you see him still willing to learn new techniques or a different approach to a particular technique.

While an art itself may be whole, or even training it fully may help you be whole, you are ALWAYS limited by what ONE man knows. You can have an amazing instructor who gives you all you need, he may even be able to teach you things he himself is not good at. But he will have gaps, you will have gaps, methods of thinking, different perspectives.

It is like sparring just one person, you may develop into a great fighter, but until you get some different looks, you aren't going to be whole.

There is no such thing as perfect instruction, because it is always limited by the person's level of knowledge and personal style.

The same goes for "My instructor knows Judo and BJJ, so he teaches us grappling". While that fill some gap, you are still limited by what worked for him, which may not necessarily work for you. He may be showing you Ippon Seionage as a great throw.. when in reality, that throw isn't for a lot of body styles, or people, and without a depth of knowledge on how to set it up, it can get you in more trouble then help.

Again, it takes different perspectives, even in ONE art to learn what all works for you, and what doesn't.

For your question, I absolutely think MOST people can do well training in one base art to begin with. This helps you learn body control, and gives you a chance to truly develop skill, so that you can see where you are weak, and define the places you wish to improve.

You could haphazardly train multiple styles, and there is nothing wrong with that, but I believe your learning curve will be longer, it will take you longer to learn each art simply because you do not have complete control of your body. Additionally, whatever blend you choose doesn't necessarily mean it will fill int he gaps for you. If say you train a grappler style, a striking style, and wrestling... as you hear so many on here proclaim. But what you will find is that you will also inherit the gaps from your instructors in each one of these arts.

While you may get somewhat of a rounded game from that, you will still have something you are better at, and learning to blend it all will take longer, because you will be struggling to develop a style, or grasping exacly how it all comes together, or how incorporate moves from one style into facets of another.

When you have a base, you are working towards the areas you already know you are weak at, and already have an idea via body feel what will work for you, and what won't. You can not waste time drilling and working on techniques that just do not work for your body type. If you're 7 feet tall, obviously shooting doubles and singles isn't a great idea for you. If you are piecing a style together it may take a lot longer for you to understand that, then if you already have a solid knowledge of what TYPES of techniques work for you. You might simply think without training that the awkwardness you are feeling with those techniques are just because they are new to you, without a base of understanding it would be hard to differentiate between "new" awkwardness and "not bio mechanicall functional for you". With a base you might realize that techniques like that require you to have stretch it out, you might realize how to modify it right away. Without a base, and if you are the only 7ft tall guy your instructor has ever coached, he might not be able to tell you what you need to do to make it work, or if it will ever work for you.

Not that you should discount any technique. But by developing a base, you develop a basic identity that is there for you to flesh out.

While I do think there are some people who just grasp things quicker, and people who can very well study two or three arts and put them together because they "get it" quicker than other people do. They by nature have a functional understanding.

But, also it is important to have a solid base because you can also spot not so great places easier. When you already have a base art and understanding, you can walk into a place and see either where you will improve working with them, or how you will not improve.

Have a base gives you the ability to see real training for what it is, and will let you see something McDojotastic.

Without a base it is very easy to be duped.

You could go into a BJJ school that is run by a purple belt, who is horrible. You could learn Muay Thai from a guy who basically has never faught, and you could be wrestling someone who only uses strength and lacks technique. You could study at those places a long time and at the end be well rounded in crap technique that gets exposed quickly when you go against someone else.

Havinga base helps you spot those traps... or it also helps you realize all the things you lack. When you walk into a place and see a level of intensity and training you have never seen before, then you are able to appreciate it. You are also able to see places that do excessively rigorous training without a goal, that is rough just for the sake of being rough.

A base gives you the nose and eyes to see and smell BS. It also allows you to pick up other arts quicker because you have understanding and body control.

Hope that is helpful.

Can they reduce, diminish, or disable, the wiring? I'm not sure that I would put it that way. I would lean more to changing or rewiring for the better... because I want to. But if one can happen, then it is only logical that the other can too. Below is my reasoning for the changing whichever way it may go. Instinctual behavior can indeed be changed with consistent physical exercises and psychological influencing. The point of martial art training is to make adjustments to the student's physical instinctual reactions. This is why there must be the consistent training, it is what adjusts the spinal responses to the different types of physical stimuli. This is why even if the person behaves in the manner of fearing any form of fighting will automatically respond once the physical threat has impacted them. (This takes place because the response route runs from the sensation to the spine and back, completely leaving out the brain and it's 'necessary' computations and assessment of the situation.) I hear time and time again, even from the 'masters' of systems saying that martial arts train in the natural behavior for self defense. That is absolutely untrue. If martial arts were natural responses, we would NOT have to work so much at it to become proficient. We would also not have to work consistently to keep the skills gained. I do feel that the adult neurological responses to situations that are lightly threatening to mortally threatening are much more difficult to influence or change, because they are not only born instinct, but also 'trained' instinct based off of the societal influence forming the thought chain and synaptic pathways. In younger people (children) the instinctual pathways can be influenced easier than adults. That is because they are still forming their processes or synaptic pathways. In adults more of a 'brainwashing' approach must be taken to make the adjustments, because they have already formed their 'permanent' thought processes. It is possible, and we've seen it happen throughout society, most notably when dealing with cults, or some form of religious extremism. It is also used in many fiction stories involving military and other secret organizations, which are somewhat based off of rumor of events that have taken place in history. The synaptic paragraph is where I get more of a no to your question. It takes an almost religious devotion to the martial arts, and a 100% commitment to survival to be able to adjust one's own instincts; and this is not something the majority of martial artists do. (NOTE: The majority is all inclusive, the world over. There are many who do, and they would be yes, but there are still enough to be a no.) Ultimately, I don't see martial arts as diminishing or changing a notion such as the one the of the man dying to save his son in a negative manner. I say this because of the moral influence of the most renowned martial art societies, (East Asian). It is taught in these systems that truth, and just actions in all behavior, as well as sacrificing one self for another is honorable, and will repay the soul in this and the next life. People more often than not aspire to these teachings in the martial arts, as opposed to pure self preservation and a solely objective outlook on life forgoing any attempt to help another in need.

Beginning with a base system in my opinion is best. Most people are not what I would call natural or gifted athletes. By focusing on one particular style they can more easily develop those skills and techniques to a higher level along with the athletic and physical skill needed. This will later give them the confidence and ability to handle those challenges that another martial art will present after first developing a strong base in the first martial art.

The other thing is with respect to westerners thinking and approach to things. Westerners think in terms that often are not congruent with the thinking and principals of martial arts. Learning about these different concepts and principals coupled with learning how to use their body and muscles differently than what they are otherwise accustomed is hard enough without compounding this by throwing in other multiple arts and what each might emphasize. This along with the fact that some martial arts don't take the same approach to some things will really leave a new student confused and possibly not developing things to the fullest extent if they are doing multiple arts but have no strong base in one paticular one to build from.

I think you can go either way. The most important thing is that you get both instructors' OK on it before you try. Some things may not work well together like karate (very linear) and kung fu (very circular) but one of those being a stand up, striking art may dovetail nicely with BJJ which is mostly grappling. Each instructor would know and have his own opinions.

Of course, if you could find one instructor who can teach both, that would be ideal.

I think that there is an alternative. Start out with several martial arts, likely only two to begin with, then adding another every so often, and after having a few under the belt, choose a main style. I never really thought about it until now, but that is how my school and my Sifu's school operate. We learn basic from Mantis, Tiger and Crane style kung fu, and then after 3 years we can choose to specialize, but we will always have the base of those three seperate styles.

I reccomend this instead of choosing a base martial art first. Simply because what if you do 3 years of Wing Chun, as a base, then realize that you like kyokushin(sp?) Karate bettet? That is alot to work out of yourself and your 'new' base just became harder to learn.

However, it is reccomended that you select a base soon and not take too many MA's at once. Too many MA's can lead to conflict with one another. If you take Choy Le Fut and TKD, that is not so much a problem because of how incredibly different they are. IF you take Chin Na Fa and BJJ, that is a problem because they are simular, yet different enough to make the ingrained techniques conflict with the other.

Personally, I would try a few schools out, hopefully decide early on what MA you want as a base, then branch out from there, or if you can find a Kung Fu school that has a sifu knowledged in many KF styles, then take that.

Hmm, it seems I did not cover why I choose a base over all of them equally. I think it is important to have a single art ingrained because then you can apply techniques from other arts to your base.

Well, Buddy-ger :)

I almost never answer a question properly on this forum. Sometimes I like to answer by asking a question that stimulates discussion between us.

With that in mind - what makes you use the term - "base art", and what "gaps" are you referring to? (like I don't know!)

This is something I always point out because from my experience and research - there are no gaps.

There are many kids on here that want to learn a "ground game" and also a "stand-up game", and so on. They speak like this because that's what they hear on TV all day long. They are quick to say that "you need a grappling art and a striking art to be well rounded".

This is partly because of the poor quality so-called martial arts that are being taught today. These same arts are being used as the measuring stick for all traditional arts.

As far as I am concerned, there is only one real MMA practitioner here, and that's Judomofo. There are also some real "traditional" martial artists here as well with many years of experience.

Now, I studied one art for many years, then I studied a couple of others and I also researched and tried others. I did not do this because my art lacked anything. It was because there was something about those arts that interested me, whether it be their methods of delivering techniques or their aesthetic beauty or their history, etc.

I believe you should develop a correct and solid foundation in one art. It makes it easier for you to learn new things.

When I meet with someone from an art I am not too familiar with, I watch the person closely for footwork, body-shifting, weight distribution, breathing, and body mechanics in general.

I can watch an MMA match and point out certain techniques I recognize from a kata that I know.

All those techniques are in kata. To the kids - "kata is useless". My teachers taught me that kata/kuen are the DNA of your art. They are the catalog of all your techniques. Oyo/Tichiki - Tuidi, kyusho are the key to finding and unlocking the mysteries of all the movements of the Classical Arts. These techniques were made into forms to hide their true meanings.

I can tell by watching someone perform their art, whether or not they have a good understanding of their art or just learned to do the movements and mimic their teachers.

So, what was your question again?

:)

To be quite honest, I do not care what others do. Every person is different. I have been a part of two martial arts. BJJ and Tae Kwon Do. I did TKD for a long time. It is my "base art" and I had really really good instructors.

I do not jump from gym to gym. I use my TKD in a full contact, I do not do Muay Thai. I just learn from the Thai boxers who have records and some still fight. I no longer do BJJ because the black belts moved and now do Submission Wrestling under the tutelage of a person who has won some very prestige awards in it.

I am going to use my brother as an example. When he was a white belt, A third degree black belt (now sixth ten years later) when she saw my brother she said to our instructor "He is the best white belt I have ever seen". As he progressed through the belts she kept on saying that about him. He is the type of guy who graduated high school early and was doing college even before that. At 21 he had multiple degrees. He one day said "I am going to learn how to juggle. With in three weeks he could do circus tricks with small hoops. Would you tell this person he would suffer from training in different martial arts at the same time. I think not. So my question is this, Is there a 'mold' martial artists are supposed to be made from? I highly doubt that. If you will not in general tell one person he/she can or can not do something then you can not tell another person that, with out meeting them and assessing their skills. BTW my brother is not the deepest in the physical gene pool in our family.

Now for the "Complete art" thing I completely agree that the arts have most every thing and you have to find a good instructor to have it taught to you that way. How ever some of us do not live in the same areas these teachers live in. Hell I checked out an Isshin Ryu school a little while back and he had upper level belts that could not extend a front kick and the angles of the ALL of the students punches where at different for the same punch. I am not going to move ten hours away to find this instructor. Hell the closest official Judo school is over three hours away.

The fact is here we have very very people that know any thing here because where I live is very energy dependant and the Good guys who know their stuff come here and find out it is a ruff and tumble place to be. Stick it our a few years at most and pack up and leave.

If I have to have to study a stand up art and a grappling art and a weapons art to be complete were I live, than so be it. If any of you elitists up there (only referring to one person) want me to learn a "complete art" than maybe you should try and move here and teach it! Because there is no way in hell I will move away from my son!!!

Now on to the point as to Judomofo being the only "real" MMA practitioner here. I do not claim to be one. I fight on and off again right now, but I know for a fact that Judomofo himself disagrees with that statement. People like Rear naked joke and callsignfuzzy give close to just as good as answers as Jodomofo just not worded quite as well.

I will mail this question to Judomofo to see if he wants to answer it. He never really is on here on the weekends.

There are many reasons that people should stick with a base system until they have a strong foundation but none more important than the ease of transition that will occur when they are proficient enough to learn or add other arts.

I speak from experience but keep in mind I did not study commercialized ATA or crap like that. I began studying Goju Ryu in a very small dojo in 1978. My Sensei also taught Judo and Aikijutsu as well. After I earned my 1st kyu he began teaching me Judo and although it was a different art I was able to quickly pick up on it because I had strong balance, focus, concentration and understanding of physics used in relation between the two from my core art. Eventually this strong based foundation that I had developed allowed me to quickly grasp the other arts I studied such as American Kenpo, Aikido, Aikijutsu and so on.

I watched many people in the last 31 years come and go, switch dojo and Sensei and then come back thinking they had improved but they were only more confused and easier to detect their flaws thus leaving them more open to defeat. Keep in mind I have seen a very few that were able to train in multiple systems and not be effected by this either.

One of the main reasons that I feel people are not training properly is because they forget that a core art is needed. That is one art that you focus on mastering. I agree that other arts will improve your performance in self defense as well as training but without a core art you have not and never will master anything...you will be another person who jumped systems but for most that is fine because not everyone is cut out to be a master level in a martial art.

There is so much more to martial arts than just fighting ability. As one ages the ability to perform, compete and fight will drastically decline due to common sense factors from the aging process. What is left is history, knowledge, understanding and respect. I respect people who spent their entire life studying and mastering a core art much more than people who want to claim master but in reality have trained in multiple arts to low ranks without ever mastering any of them.

If one is studying for competition only such as MMA then you need to study what works for that competitive level but in reality you are not training in any thing that is a martial art but rather in martial art techniques taken from authentic arts and applied to a sport environment. This is not to say MMA is worse or better than classical martial arts but it is not the study of the martial way but rather the study of competition.

A pro football player studies football all their life to be their best. They could not be without doing so, yet they eventually seek out other things to improve their core. Some of them have studied martial arts others have even studied ballet. In the end though their core is still football regardless of any other sports they may have played.

Regardless of what I believe or think I am not out to convince people I am right because I do not care what they think. I am just stating my opinion based on my personal experiences after 31 years of non-stop training. If that means people believe me to be an expert great if not so what. The martial arts are my way of life and have been since I was a child...I am still and always will be the student.

I agree totally with Sensei Scandal on this. He hit the nail on the head. The comments by the kids here that think that they need to study a ground art, stand up art, ...etc. These attitudes show only that they have not studied long enough or with the right instructor. I have background in many martial arts. It was not my choice. In the 1960's in South Carolina, martial arts schools were rare. I would study a style until the dojo closed. That was normal then in my area. So I got a taste of many arts. Eventually, I got into a situation where I could study as a personal student with a true master of several arts. For years I studied with him and not only learned new techniques. He also taught me the how and why, as well as the history. It all helped to put martial arts as a whole into better perspective. Like Sensei Scandal, I can watch another martial artist for a short time and determine his knowledge level and ability. It comes from understanding principles that are always present in all fighting arts. Timing, body shifting, Fluidity, application, ..... can all be seen by those that know what to look for. In the 41+ years I've spent my life obsessed with the study and perfection of martial arts. While most people have years of training, they held a full time job or went to school too. I trained and taught 6-7 days a week for many years. As a result I missed out on making a lot of money or having a normal career. Instead I spent my life day and night learning and doing martial arts. So I feel qualified to say that the best martial artists are the ones that trained a long time in one art. That is only true if the instructor is very knowledgeable. Unfortunately in many dojo the student can and often does catch up to his instructor. But there are rare cases where the instructor can teach a student for many, many years. I was lucky enough to have had training personally with two such instructors. Those that study a little of this and a little of that have just that. They lack the deeper understanding that can be obtained by simply studying an art that has stood the test of time. The old masters were deadly fighters. They were no fools. The arts they studied and taught would not still be around of they were not effective in the original form. The problem is that that is rarely seen. Even when it is, students today are to selfish and want instant gratification. They want belt ranks and to become a bad ***. What really makes me want to puke is that newbies often think that they are smarter than the guys with years of experience. They think that they can put together a bunch of skills they have-half learned from a few arts and create something better. That is like the grade school student thinking that he knows better than the College professor what is best for him.

OK so now I've had my say. I care only for those with an open mind that want to learn and can set aside their beliefs. Those that think that they know a better way are just fooling themselves. If you think I'm wrong just go visit Sensei Scandal, Shihan J, Judomofo, nwohioguy, me, or a few others here that have taken the long path to get were we are.

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nwohioguy makes a very good point. He mentioned seeing students switch dojo and Sensei several times. Then these same guys come back thinking they have improved. I too have seen this personally. One instructor moved to another state after only 3 years of training. He broke away to go on his own. 10 years later he called and apologized, asking to come back. During the ten years he had taught regularly. He did not however study steady. Instead he would visit several dojo as a guest and pick what he wanted from them. When I visited his dojo his technique was way off. In his mind he now had more than 13 years and knew what he was doing. He was very wrong. It ended with him leaving again when I refused to promote him based on the crap he was now doing. Another Student trained 4-5 years only to leave and go on his own. I cautioned him to come train part time. His ego would not allow that. I visited his class two years later. His black belts were making major mistakes in their pinning techniques that would allow the attacker to counter the pin. When I attempted to correct them, he intervened. Again his ego got in the way. Then I watched his new students doing basic Pinan Shodan kata. They were leaving out the low side kick before the three steps forward. When i asked him why, he claimed that when I taught him the kata, there was no kick there. Having done the kata the same way for about 40 years, I knew better. He would not believe me. His techniques and those of his students were slowly allowing loop holes to creep in. The study under someone that knows the correct application is vital to mastering techniques. Otherwise a skilled attacker can counter even the best techniques. Only long training under consistent, correct training can burn these concepts into the student. Jumping around here and there only teaches different half-assed techniques that can easily be countered.

As for the Gaps you mention. I see no gaps in correct instruction. I only see gaps in the instruction from poorly trained instructors that is then passed on to others.

I have a belt policy that I follow in my classes. If someone joins, they are allowed to wear the rank they came into my class with. I let them decide. That does not mean that I rank them. Only that they can wear the rank they earned somewhere else. Many times they wear their black belt only one or two classes. Then they always come to me and tell me that they don;t feel they deserve the rank they have. They ask me what rank I think they should wear. A few sad cases come to only one or two classes. Then never come back. Often they are the guys that come in thinking that they are really good. They quickly find out that I can stop anything they do before they can get going. Since I'm 55 and most of these guys are in their 20's, it shocks them. They can't understand how a guy like me who trains only a few hours a week now(due to health problems) can so easily defeat them. I tell this not to brag. There are plenty of guys that can take me apart. I say this because it is true. Students today come to study with a full cup. They are not willing to empty their cup to learn. I tell all new students that if they are here to earn belts, they might as well go somewhere else. I teach martial arts. If a student deserves a rank, I award it to him.

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Rob B "(Karate very linear)" ??? I think you might want to rethink that statement. A few styles favor the linear moves, but most have many linear and circular movements.