A question for Jehovah's Witnesses...?

Not a JW nor a former JW.

The JWs are not taught accurately

There is not a word for 'cross' in Koine Greek of the New Testament. BUT the early church “teachers/fathers” that wrote each other in their native tongues used the words for 'cross'.

From the beginning...

The translation of “pole” is from the word נֵס - nec - Hebrew - Strong's H5251 in Hebrew and is translated - standard, signal pole, ensign, banner, sign, sail.

The use of “nec” here is given by the subject. Biblical Hebrew and history show that these were long poles that had a small cross bar near the top from which a banner was hung.

Young's Literal Translation

Numbers 21:8

And Jehovah saith unto Moses, 'Make for thee a burning serpent, and set it on an ensign; and it hath been, every one who is bitten and hath seen it -- he hath lived.

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Each tribe and family in the tribe had a standard that was hung in such a fashion. In the wilderness where this happened with the brass serpent the Hebrews moved from camp location to camp location as an army marching. Each tribe had its place and a banner by which those that needed to stop for any number of reasons while they were on the move could see where their family and tribe were and could rejoin. The same idea was during encampment each group had an area, a ensign with banner marked their location.

The Watch Tower description of this is closer to the Caduceus or the Staff of Asclepius (and pagan) pole with serpent entwined which is as the symbol used in medicine today.

(see links 3 & 4) Keep in mind that the serpents around a single upright pole is symbol of Hermes god of trickery, wealth and death.

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The Cross is not

an ankh (Crux Ansata),

a tau (Crux Commissa),

an iona (Celtic Cross),

a swastika (Crux Gammata)

a crucifix (Cruci Fixus)

a Coptic (Coptic cross),

an X (Crux Decussata)

an upright stake (Crux Simplex)

or any other form from the imaginations of men and devils.

The upright stake on the other hand is very much a pagan symbol.

Upright stake is:

an Obelisk

and

a steeple

and

a maypole.

There is not one reason to use the idea of upright stake except to pollute and deceive.

To be "staked" in the language used during the writing of the gospel testaments was commonly understood to be crucified on a tree-like cross which was the Roman method 200 years before Jesus and long after too. There is not a word for 'cross' in Koine Greek of the New Testament. BUT the early church teachers/fathers that wrote each other in their native tongue used the word for 'cross'.

There is a great deal of history revisionism at work calling the cross pre-existing as a pagan symbol. Well meaning but undereducated scholars included. The list of cross-like symbols has been given and none are the Christian cross.

Christ did in fact die on a cross. History and archeology all prove that Romans did in fact crucify people on crosses in Yeshuas time. However the argument that Yeshua didn't die on cross because its pagan is ridiculous and not supported by any shred of evidence

The cult tries to link the image of the Christian Cross to the Hindus and Buddhists in India and China, and certain symbols used by these Pagan religions. in other words "similarity make relationship". One simple way to to counter this cultic argument is pointing out a stake or upright pole, such as an obelisk (from pagan Egyptian idolatry and still used by Wicca today), was also used as a symbol in pagan religions.

If we follow the "similarity make relationship", no matter on what instrument Jesus was crucified on (Cross or stake) it could be said that it was used as a pagan symbol. Clearly, the argument of prior pagan usage of the symbols similar to the "Cross" or "stake", cannot be the deciding factor regarding what instrument was used in Jesus’ crucifixion, or if that instrument can be used today to represent Christ's death for our sins.

To most Witnesses this is very new information, and they have no refutation for it, it is very effective in shaking them up. Just because something is similar to that used by the Pagans, this does not mean it it stems from Paganism.

The so called "torture stake" also stems from Pagan sources. A Greek statue housed in the Louvre closely resembles all images of the Cults idea of Christ dying on a Torture stake. The statue is called " The Death Greek God Marsyas".

It does not matter what the Watchtower Society says regarding cross worship or who Jesus is. It only matters to Jehovah's Witnesses what the Bible says on matters.

The Bible shows that the Babylonian god, Tammuz, was a false god in opposition to the true God, Jehovah, as was the founder of Babylon, Nimrod, who cast himself as a god with that name. History and archeology shows his symbol was the cross. Cross worship evidently began there.

Crosses were not the main form of execution by the Romans. That is just popular myth as, for instance, was "the midnight ride of Paul Revere". Actually, Revere never got outside of town. The was stopped by the British. It was Longfellow, writing his famous poem who switched the name because it sounded better than the truth.

The worst way to execute someone is by upright pole and nailing the arms above the head while bending the legs before nailing them. This is much worse than on a cross which would allow one to linger for days. On an upright pole, the person chokes to death with relief only by lifting with the legs to gain a breath. The pain eventually gets so bad the legs give way and choking begins again. The person dies within a day.

This then also fulfills the prophecy at Deut. 21:23 regarding Jesus as shown in a quote in Galatians 3:13. Jesus fulfilled prophecies that he had no control over with both his birth (when and where) and his death.

As to who and what Jesus is, we refer to Colossians 1:15-18 about his beginning and to Philippians 2:6-10 concerning a capsule version of his existence and place in the universe.

Mark,

Jesus IS the Son of God. He came to earth from heaven and gave his perfect human life as a ransom sacrifice. His death and resurrection made salvation to eternal life possible for those exercising faith in him. He is now ruling as King of God’s heavenly Kingdom, which will soon bring peace to the entire earth. Jesus never claimed equality with God and thus is not part of a Trinity.—John 3:16; 14:28; Revelation 11:15.

Regarding the cross consider the following:

The original Greek words used in the Bible for "cross" are STAUROS and XYLON (Mk. 18:21, Mt.27:32, Lk. 23:26, Jn. 19:17). They refer to a post or the trunk of a tree respectively. There is really not any debate about their meaning in Bible times. Many Greek lexicons list the primary meaning of stauros as stake, not cross. This is true of the later Latin word also (CRUZ).

In fact, King James and the popular NIV even translate XYLON at Acts 5:30 and 1Pt 2:24 as "tree."

As far as it's pagan origins I think that many here have given enough evidence!

Hi Mark, good question.

It seems that whether You seem that it's not pagan ; or whether I think that it is pagan or not, when it comes to TRUE worship the only thought that really matters as you already know belongs to God. So let us consider his thought on this matter, from his word the bible.

Why is their no cross in our gathering places?

According to the law mentioned at

Exodus 20:4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth.

Isaiah 42:8 “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.

Deuteronomy 27:15 “‘Cursed is the man who makes a carved image or a molten statue, a thing detestable to Jehovah, the manufacture of the hands of a wood-and-metal worker, and who has put it in a hiding place.’ (And all the people must answer and say, ‘Amen!’)

We both know what an idol, an image, or even molten statues are, who makes them and how people like to make things concerning worship . Would these things be considered or have any type of relation when making or having a cross? hmmmmm, seems very similar to me. But you will ultimately have to decide.

If you closely look at the old testament no faithful servants of God (Abraham, Joseph, Jacob, Joshua, etc. used any type of images or idols in worship for it would be a form of IDOLATRY.

Even in the New testament none of the apostles, Christian congregation before or after Jesus death used such for they knew it would be a form of IDOLATRY.

For they all knew we walk and worship God by Faith and not by Sight.(2 Cor 5:7).

So whether Jesus died on a cross or not, the bible clearly shows that God does not want us to use images in worship. And we must view them as he views them as mentioned in Duet.27:15.

And if we are not to make them for ourselves and keep them for ourselves or even have them for ourselves privately in our homes, how even much more so in the house of God.

Question #2 The bible says that Jesus is the Son of the living God. Matthew 16:16.

John 3:16.

Yet he also has many roles.. Isaiah 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Long before the Christian era, crosses were used by the ancient Babylonians as symbols in their worship of the fertility god Tammuz. The use of the cross spread into Egypt, India, Syria, and China. Then, centuries later, the Israelites adulterated their worship of Jehovah with acts of veneration to the false god Tammuz. The Bible refers to this form of worship as a ‘detestable thing.’—Ezekiel 8:13, 14.

The Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John use the Greek word stau·ros′ when referring to the instrument of execution on which Jesus died. (Matthew 27:40; Mark 15:30; Luke 23:26) The word stau·ros′ refers to an upright pole, stake, or post. The book The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parsons, explains: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross.”

As recorded at Acts 5:30, the apostle Peter used the word xy′lon, meaning “tree,” as a synonym for stau·ros′, denoting, not a two-beamed cross, but an ordinary piece of upright timber or tree. It was not until about 300 years after Jesus’ death that some professed Christians promoted the idea that Jesus was put to death on a two-beamed cross. However, this view was based on tradition and a misuse of the Greek word stau·ros′. It is noteworthy that some ancient drawings depicting Roman executions feature a single wooden pole or tree.

The use of the cross in worship is no different from the use of images in worship, a practice condemned in the Bible. (Exodus 20:2-5; Deuteronomy 4:25, 26) The apostle John accurately reflected the teachings of true Christianity when he admonished his fellow Christians with the words: “Guard yourselves from idols.” (1 John 5:21) This they did even when it meant facing death in the Roman arena.

First-century Christians, however, held the sacrificial death of Christ in high esteem. Likewise today, although the instrument used to torture and kill Jesus is not to be worshipped, true Christians commemorate Jesus’ death as the means by which God provides salvation to imperfect humans. (Matthew 20:28) This superlative expression of God’s love will bring untold blessings to lovers of truth, including the prospect of everlasting life.—John 17:3; Revelation 21:3, 4.

Hello.

We do believe Jesus is the Son of God he sent down from heaven as the Bible says.

Nearly all mainline references say that Jesus died on a stake. James Strong's Greek dictionary, W. E. Vine's, Matthew Henry, etc.

Here are some links.

Cross References

Strong's Greek Dictionary/Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT words

James Strong did Strongs concordance also.

http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/strongs.ht... Use this to check

any verse in KJV where "cross" occurs. Hit the word link to find what

instrument was actually used to kill Jesus.

http://www.tgm.org/bible.htm This link has both Strong's and Vines'

actual original language word dictionaries. Scroll down to either and

put cross in the English or Stauros in the Greek box. Strong's number

is 4716.

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon...

Thayer's Greek lexicon

http://www.studylight.org/isb/ Interlinear Bibles showing English and

Greek. Click on the word to see what it really means/comes from.

This has the Textus Receptus that KJV used, Byzantine, and Nestle-

Arnand Greek texts and several Hebrew Interlinears also.

http://philologos.org/__eb-ttb/ The Two Babylons book by

Reverend Alexander Hyslop, 1800s....has a cross section.

http://www.nazarene-friends.org/nazcomm/40/010.htm...

21st Century Bible (Nazarene) has lengthy notes on cross not

being the instrument used each place where cross occurs in Bible

(footnotes..click link)

http://www.wordofyah.org/scriptures/nt/B40C010.htm

Paleo Times Bible (historic and linguistic, uses stake instead

of cross in English Bible text)

Firstly, Jesus did not die on a cross. He was executed on a stake.

More importantly. Who does the bible say Jesus is ?

He is clearly the "son of God".

"The firstborn of all creation"

Jesus was the first being to be created by God

Scriptural evidence indicates that before Jesus came to earth he was known as Michael who is the archangel. There is only 1 archangel mentioned in the bible.

At 1 Thess 4:16 the voice of Jesus is said to that of the archangel

Rev Chapter 12 describes Satan being ousted from heaven by "Michael and his angels"

Daniel Chapter 12 says that in the "last days" Michael would stand up (rule) on behalf of his people

If Michael is not Jesus why is he assigned a role of such significance?

It is Jesus who resurrects the dead, rules his people, and battles the enemies of God

It is good to see a biblical question for Jehovah's Witnesses and not the usual heresay and gossip

Jesus most definitely IS the son of God.

The cross is an icon, an idol and we truly believe God when he tells us to guard ourselves from idols. His first commandment was to have nothing before his face nor bow down to serve it.

Also Jesus was killed on an upright stake. There were many torture treatments men got in those days....I think the worst was the pointed upright stake that they stuck up the butt and went through the chest.

This was a fast execution. I suppose they wanted Jesus to last a while.

Because the cross is a pagan symbol and we do not wish to pollute our pure worship of Jehovah with pagan filth. All cross-worshipers will be destroyed by Jehovah at Armageddon. The cross is a lie from Satan.

Only the pagan-poop religions engage in cross-worship. I use the word “poop” because it’s a good way of describing the spiritual pollution of pagan practices. It’s like pouring yourself a fresh glass of water and mixing up some brown yucky stuff with it. True worshippers of Jehovah would never pollute their pure worship by doing such a disgusting thing as worshiping a cross.