A sincere question for those of us in the Calvinist school of thought?

Great question. Unless I missed something I don't see where you said, "Calvinists......." You said,

"I believe....... which school of thought do you believe?" To call calivinism a heresy is just plain ignorant. Was Jesus, Paul and Peter heretics for using the word "elect." If anyone reads John 6:37-44 and then verse 63-65, 17:2, Romans 9, I Peter 1:2, I Thessalonians 1:4, II Thessalonians 2:13, Acts 13:48 "as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

John 6:63 - "it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing."

John 1:13 - the children of God who believe are born of God" These among other verses indicate that regeneration precedes faith. Ephesians 2:8-9 say that even our faith is a gift of God.

II Timothy 2:25 - "if God will grant them repentance so that they may know the truth."

You Arminians who criticize "calvinists" never talk about the verses which I never did when I was an arminian. It's time to believe what the Bible says and not what we want the Bible to say.

Ephesians 1:4,11. "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" HELLO

"in Him we have obtained an inheritance being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will."

Christian friends, these verses are meant to be a blessing to your soul and provide assurance and a foundation for godly living and give you a living hope. Our God is sovereign and in control. Jesus knew who He was dying for. Jesus did not die and rise again and at best only a cheerleader in heaven hoping, biting His nails, that people will repent and believe. Hoping that men and women in bondage will somehow muster the spiritual strength being dead in their sins to throw off the chains of darkness all by themselves unaided by the power of the Holy Spirit to trust Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The truth is that we were like Lazarus in the grave until the word of God gave Lazarus life calling him out of death and bringing him back to life. That is our blessed powerful gospel. Why do we seek to bring glory to ourselves and in so doing take away the glory that belongs only to God?

Dear Primo:

Thank you very much for your question. It is a timely one for sure and one that all professing Christians should ultimately ask themselves. The so-called First Point (Total Depravity/Inability) addresses the nature of man and the reason of his eternal need for salvation. The middle Three Points address the work that Each Member of the Godhead plays in bringing about the salvation of the sinner in Point #1, and finally the Last and 5th Point discussess the final end of the saved sinner from #1.

While I believe there is a much better way to articualte the so-called 5 points, the historic way does provide a partial logical flow. From a generic (Covenental) perspective the following is a much more tightly and logically articulation of the 5 points along with each of their correlaries.

Point One

Statement - Total Depravity

Correlary - Total Inability (to savingly believe the Gospel within the energy of oneself)

Point Two

Statement - Unconditional Election

Negative Correlary - Reprobation

Point Three

Statement - Unconditional Redemption

Correlary - Particular Redemption

Point Four

Statement - Unconditional Regneration

Negative Correlary - Hardening

Point Five

Statement - Perseverance of the Saints

Correlary - Eternal Security

Each of these items can be further discussed within the context of the three salvation economies contained within Scripture.

Thanks again for your great question and I apologize for being long winded ... I am sure I'll get all negative votes if any votes at all [ha ha]

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever should believe in Him will not perish but, have evrlasting life." John 3:16

That scripture says that whoever believes shall be saved. Your saying that God has to give you the faith to believe in order to be saved. That would make this saying of Jesus null and void. We all have to make a choice. Yes, the Holy Spirit is working all the time in the hearts of all human beings gently knocking at the door of their hearts. This means that everyone has a fair chance at salvation. Regeneration occurs when the Holy Spirit enters the individual. That happens the moment the individual repents. Below you will see that God is no respecter of persons. He shows no partiality. Meaning He does not choose some for salvation and some for damnation.

Acts 10

34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Peace and grace.

You are absolutely right. I believe Ephesians 2:8 is crystal clear that you cannot possibly earn salvation. It is completely a *gift* -- even the faith that you posses! We must pray as the man in the temple: "Have MERCY on me, a sinner!" & "Lord, open my heart/understanding/spiritual eyes to the Truth of Your Word." Without the Holy Spirit quickening my dead soul (which is how Scripture describes me), I can in no way "receive" the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. This *is* the Biblical teaching.

Primoa, I have to say that Calvinism is the most destructive heresy to be introduced in the Reformation. It is gleaned not from exegesis, but from Augustine of Hippo's forcing ancient Greek fatalism into the Scriptures.

Among other heresies, Calvin introduced

1) Infant Baptism as efficacious for salvation

2) Enforced conversion, leading to many executions of non-Calvinists during his 'watch'

3) The idea that God is pleased to damn those He could save:

"We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his PLEASURE TO DOOM TO DESTRUCTION. We maintain that this counsel, as regards the elect, is founded on his free mercy, without any respect to human worth, while those whom he dooms to destruction are excluded from access to life by a just and blameless, but at the same time incomprehensible judgment"

(Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Section 7). [emphasis mine, and his own words disprove those who say Calvin never taught predestination to damnation].

As God says He has 'no pleasure in the death of the wicked' (Ezek. 33:11) and Peter states God is 'not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance', Calvin has basically accused God of being a LIAR! But on the contrary, Scripture says: 'Yea, let God be true, but every man a liar.' (Rom 3:4).

Such are the teachings of the man whom his Protestant detractors of the time (and there were quite a few!) called 'The Protestant Pope'.

May God bless all who -- of their own free will -- accept the call from Christ and believe on Him as God, Lord and Saviour.

You know bro that I am more of the Armenian school of thought. I believe that ALL who desire God can come to Him. He said that all who seek Him will find Him. He gives ALL that spark to want God, however, many fill it with other things, which is why they are constantly seeking and not being filled. We ALL have a God shaped vacuum inside of us which Only HE can fill. HE wants ALL to come. He already knows who will come because He is outside of time and will make sure they are in the right place at the right time. The book of Revelation shows that again and again HE shows His love and yet some still refuse to come to Him. Always empty, always seeking.

@ Fringe regeneration scriptures ir the like words: not sure which tranlation my Calvinist book does not say sorry.

who were born: john 1:12:13

born anew: John 3:3-8

regenrated and renewed in teh holy spirit: Titus 3:5

born a new: 1Peter 1:3

born of God: 1 John 5:4

New heart scriptures also exist as well....I digress.

I believe regeneration comes after being saved along with the holy spirit, and spiritual gifts.

Well, I am sorry, but I disagree, What I will label as "Classic 5 point Calvinism" states the following doctrinal beliefs, and uses the helpful acrostic (T-U-L-I-P) to remember them: T=Total Depravity of man; U=Unconditional election; L=Limited Atonement; I=Irresistible grace; P=Perseverance of the Saints. In this case, if classic Calvinism is correct, then the 'I' in particular leads to the inexorable conclusion that God creates most to send them to hell. If an individual cannot resist God's grace (the 'I'), and God elects only a few to salvation (Matt. 7:13-14), then clearly he elects most to damnation without their ever having a chance to make a genuine choice. This is tight logic with no room for equivocation and the non-contradictory Calvinist is forced to admit this. In addition, the 'L' (limited atonement, meaning that Jesus only died for those who are actually saved, and not for all people of all times) is shown to be false by many scripture, not the least of which are John 3:16, or 1 John 2:2.

Due to the fact that the classic 5 point Calvinist position leads to the conclusion that God purposely creates people knowing they will have no choice in avoiding hell (only give/direct His ‘irresistible grace’ to very few), I reject this position since the teachings in the scripture regarding His mercy would contradict this conclusion (Deut. 4:31; Jer. 3:12). It is true that all who pass the age of accountability deserve to go to hell, for all are born in sin and all freely choose to sin and thereby ratify their position as Adam's rebellious descendants. However, if those who pass the age of accountability are not given the ability to respond to God's mercy in order to be saved, then the unavoidable conclusion is that God continues to create the vast majority of people knowing they will have no choice but to be condemned to hell, since He will not direct His "irresistible grace" on them (a concept not taught in scripture). This conclusion leads to impugning the three most important characteristics (from man's perspective at least) of God's character - His love, mercy and forgiveness. In addition, scripture contradicts this position (2 Pet. 3:9; 1 Tim. 2:3-4). The Calvinistic notion that Adam's sin is to blame for our inability to be able to respond to God's mercy is inconsistent with scripture (Ezekiel 18 et al). Adam’s sin affects all who are born after him and gives them a predisposition of pride and unbelief which deserves God’s just condemnation, but God’s abundant compassion makes a Way for all who will choose to respond to it.

Eph.2:1 says God found us dead in our sins. What do dead people do ? nothing ! so read on , "He" made us alive and gave us the faith to get saved with vrs.8-9 . Also read Jn.6:44 if this doesn't settle it for you all, you might get the book "The Potters freedom" by James R. White

"So which school of thought do you believe and why?"

Given that you addressed the question to Calvinists, I guess that most of those reading it will either be Calvinists, or at least vaguely sympathetic to Calvinism.